To think a 7/8 year old should not be alone with a 3/4 year old in a park, does not matter what country you live in.

[goodiegoodieyumyum]

Just been to our local park there was a little girl about 7 or eight with a 3 or 4 year old without any parents to be seen.

Now I live in the Netherlands so I know that parents allow there children more freedom than other places, but the park has really steep concrete stairs with no hand rail and there were older children running around her who twice tried to barrel into me and my one year old ds.

I was the only adult there so what would the 7 year old do if either of them hurt themselves. I suppose she may have a mobile phone but last year the slide collapsed and the air ambulance was called so I just can't understand why a parent would allow this.

I think in the circumstances that D0oinMeCleanin has set out, it is perfectly understandable and reasonable.

I would not be particularly worried about a stranger snatching my child as that is incredibly rare. The biggest threat to children are adults they know.

What worries me far more are cars. Car and lorry drivers are very unpredicatable and dangerous.

I would not allow my four year old to go to a park unsupervised with his older sisters. My four year old has a condition called reflex anoxic seizure. Fortunately they don't happen very often, but the last time was in a park, when he fell off a roundabout and couldn't breathe. It was terrifying enough for me but at laest I know how to put him in the recovery position until he recovered. I woulnd't expect a child to be able to deal with that.

I used to babysit for other people's babies aged at (in the 90s, not a million years ago).

Times have changed it is true, but a sensible 7/8 year old should be fine with their younger sibling for a short while, surely?

sorry, aged eight

I pity that 'sensible' 8-year-old should something out of the ordinary occur and they react in, well, not adult way.

Anyone who may have hired an 8-year-old to babysit is irresponsible at the least.

I have a sensible 7-year-old. I don't expect her to supervise anyone but herself, in as musch as she's able because she's, well, 7. I certainly do not expect her to assume such an adult role for her younger brother. I'd find that really unfair on her.

When she goes to the park, she wants to play with her friends and focus on that, not on her wee brother, because she's a child.

Expat, I totally agree 8 is very young to expect a child to be responsible for another, at 8 you are still a child and should be able to act like a child being responsible for looking after another child at that age takes away being able to act like a child.

As I have said before the Park as dangerous steep steps and on one side a busy road with not much of a barrier to stop a child running onto the road. It is one thing for the 8year old to the park on her own, ( although I am not sure I would allow my dd to do that) but another thing all together for her to be in sole charge of a smaller child.

Loops, you were hired as a baby sitter at 8 years old? With no other adults about? Seriously? That's crazy.

Yep. The really crazy thing is that the baby had sisters, one older than me. But they went to school while I babysat.

I had a fucked up childhood.

That must have been weird for you and not very pleasant.

I was babysitting at that age too. My next door neighbour had 5 DCs & I would look after the 2 youngest on a Sunday morning while her DH worked & she ferried the eldest ones around football matches.
My DM was next door & all was fine.

They were very placid children though.

Would parents who think it is ok, leave their 7 yr olds unsupervised at home or even leave their 7 yr olds at home looking after their 4 yr old siblings? I can't see it's much different, in fact both scenarios pose dangers but at least at home they are not having to go near roads and are in a familiar environment.

I wouldnt expect my eldest to be responsible for his younger brother at a park alone. They don't walk to school alone at 7 around here. 10-11 is the norm.

I did take my brother to the park when we were that age; we grew up in Sweden where that was normal. Sometimes with my teen brother around. One day little brother banged his head on a piece of wiring and got a big gaping cut. Teen brother refused to take him home because he didn't want to leave his mates and was desperate to look cool. I and our middle brother made sure he got home safely and were taken care of; we'd have been around 6 and 7 at the time. (Big brother got it in the neck big time when our parents found out.)

So imo not just about the ages but about the child. Perhaps the person I would be least inclined to trust would be a socially insecure teen who has his mates with him. A mature and maternal 7-8yo who is used to a bit of responsibility, much better.

(Having said that, when 15yo dd had a bad fall in the spring, her 12yo brother coped very well and rang emergency services and reassured her etc. So some older boys can be trusted).

Anyway, nobody needs to pity me: I had plenty of fun. And everybody I knew was expected make their own way to school, to occasionally mind younger siblings or take the dog for a walk, and to run errands to the shop from the age of 6 or so, so it didn't make me feel neglected in any way.

I am not saying anyone is wrong not to let their child go to the park alone at 8. But I don't feel like rushing back to my Swedish relatives and telling them that they are all raising their children wrongly either. And the OP was about another culture.

LOL @ a 'mature and maternal' 7-year-old. They are seven.

It just smacks of laziness to me, can't be arsed to parent my kids at the park, so I'll use independence as a guise to leave a young child to supervise an even younger child.

There was a famous designer, she was expected to do this with her 4-year-old brother. She was 8. He drowned while she was, well, playing with her friends the way a kid that age should be doing. She lived her life plagued by guilt and depression and finally killed herself when she was 48.

You wouldn't leave a child that age home alone with a 3/4-year-old child, but willing to do it in a setting involving roads, playground equipment, people you do or don't know?

The kids (including me) in my street walked to school from a young age, at least 7yrs. We moved recently to a quiet estate with park just round the corner from our house. My 10 and 7 yr old go on their own. Even the 7 yr old has been on his own for short periods a few times. I think it's good for them and it feels quite safe which is why we moved here. I think it's a shame to have parents constantly hovering watching their every move. We probably had too much freedom as kids though and would be away all day from a young age getting up to all sorts.

It can't be good for a 7 yos development to never go anywhere alone. Seven is most definitely not a baby

It is such a balancing act. DD1 -7 (8 next week if that makes a difference) has been in and out of our house all day. If I'm honest I've mostly not been certain where she is. Either at the park or our neighbours ( both are less than 50metres away) they run between us all.

We've just been cuddled up in bed and she has declared today "the best day ever". She is ready for the independence she has been afforded and I think that what she has is reasonable

Well Socharlotte it never dd me any harm being accompanied. I am a Farley independent adult not ted to my mums apron strings

Where I grew up, a lot of places, you really could not let a 7-year-old alone. I grew up one of the most independent people I know. I left home to live in France for the first time at 15.

There's plenty of time for it.

And there's letting them out unsupervised and then there's letting a child that age out unsupervised and expecting them to supervise a 3/4-year-old child.

expatinscotland Sat 01-Dec-12 17:22:52
"LOL @ a 'mature and maternal' 7-year-old. They are seven."

I was referring to myself- on that occasion when my teen brother failed to get help for his injured little brother and I did not fail. So no cause for the LOL- I did actually do it. And I am sure my mother left me alone at home when I was 7. As I said, everybody did when I grew up.

My Swedish relatives still wouldn't think twice about leaving a 7yo at home when they popped out to the shops. And expect 7yos to make their own way to school. Perhaps they are irresponsible, but statistics do not show any more early child deaths in Sweden than in the UK. In fact, last time there was any kind of survey, the only difference showed was that British children were far more likely to indulge in risk taking behaviour as they grow up.

Not saying the British are wrong in their different attitudes to caution. But it doesn't seem to translate into any actual results. So I would be a little loath to lecture the rest of the world on child rearing. Since I live in the UK, naturally I adapt to national norms and don't do anything that would shock dc's mates' parents. But I don't go home telling everybody else they have to change just because I have come into contact with a different culture.

When I was 7-8, I was often left with my 4-5 yo brother for short periods of time. Often. But that was forty years ago!

The Swedish attitude to risk for children is very different to the British one, and I find it interesting and quite appealing tbh. I remember hearing something on Women's Hour years ago... Jenni Murray was interviewing a Swedish childcare expert, who was talking about 3 and 4 year olds using proper sharp knives for chopping veg etc... "But don't they cut themselves?!" gasped Murray... "Ya", replied the Swedish man, "But usually only once".

I think you can't generalise, because the roads, circumstances depend so much, but

I would expect junior aged children to be able to walk themselves to school quite easily. My ds has done it since he was 7 and prefers to do it. (I walk dds to school, but he goes on ahead and comes home from clubs on his own)
When I was teaching in east End of London, school rule was junior can walk themselves at parents choice, infants must be accompanied. That seems reasonable to me

Obviously if you have very busy road to cross, or walk a long way, that is different.

We live in dead end road, loads of kids in our street and nearby streets, many of them are allowed to play out. My ds has been allowed to walk to friends house 5 minutes away since 8. But again, no road to cross, and he is sensible. dd has been allowed to go and knock for her friend at the end of the road (within sight of our house, but I don't stand and watch) since she was 7.

On the other hand, I would not let older child watch younger child in this context, it isn't fair on older child if something goes wrong.

IMHO we are very overprotective of our kids, and I think that it actually backfires, they don't learn to think and to be street aware. The greatest number of road accidents happen among 11 year olds going to secondary school, because most of them have never been anywhere on their own and are not road wise.

Right, but teaching children to be street aware should happen incrementally. I don't have a car, and so, when walking with ds ,6, I teach him how to cross roads-look left and right, listen etc.
And because we walk everywhere he knows the layout of the streets, and which roads you have to be careful on.
I let him run ahead, because I know that he is now trained to stop at the kerb and wait for me.
I do think that kids being driven everywhere until they suddenly turn 11 and then being left to get to school alone is daft. They need training in road awareness and gradually taught to become acclimatised to responsibility.
Maybe in Scandinavia it is more normal for all children to walk to school, the traffic is less intense, and drivers are more on the lookout for children. They arn't here.
Where we live people bomb down the road, even the road by the school, in their massive 4 x 4 s at top speed not giving a shit if there are kids in the vicinity.

IfNotNowThenWhen - that is exactly my point, if you don't allow your children to learn through the years, then at 11 they are a danger to themselves. Upthread someone said they need to be able to take themselves to school in Y7. In my opinion that is too late.

We started small with ds, he was allowed to corner shop, to the library (in our road) to a friends. We gave him a watch and once he could use it properly he was given time boundaries (to the library for 20 minutes) etc so he can earn his responsibility.

We are placed ideally, corner shop, library, football field, school and friends are all within 5 minutes walk with no roads to cross, except shop, which has a crossing. But even if we weren't I would find someway to do it.

Perhaps traffic is less intense in Scandinavia but there are other dangers; most children live very close to some kind of river or lake, the cold climate is a threat, there are woods where you can get lost.

When I was in junior school we were drilled in such subjects as what to do if somebody had fallen through a hole in the ice into deep water: the assumption was that a child might well find themselves in a situation where they would need to make a rapid decision of that kind without adult support. We were also taught how to watch each other for signs of frostbite or hypothermia whilst out playing and how to find our way out of a forest.

I think there is a difference between a 7+ year old alone and one in charge of a younger sibling. DS1 walks to school alone, goes to the park on his bike and I have left him home alone while I went to shops etc. He is almost 9 now and we have been doing this since moving home as it is more the 'done' thing around here (hence adults are expecting to have lone kids around so more people keep an eye out).

However, I wouldn't leave him with DS2. It isn't fair, he is not his parent and has no responsibility towards him. And DS2 is a handful for an adult.

What would you think of a 9 and 6yo, local park, could cross the road in front of the house and get to the park without crossing another, 5 minute walk away?

I really struggle with this tbh, don't want to let 9yo out alone, but think they could both do with a bit of independence. I tried letting them play out the front last summer, but they buggered off to said park, which put the end to that.

I do leave 9yo alone in the house for short periods and even had to leave the 6yo and 9yo alone together for 10 minutes a few weeks ago, although 6yo was ill and conked on the sofa.