In thinking that good make-up is deceptive?

[Moominsummermadness]

Well of course it's supposed to be. That's the whole point of it. Even very subtle make-up is worn to make us look prettier, younger, healthier. This morning, I was rushing around trying to get four DCs ready to get two of them to panto rehearsals, and then on to my parents house, yet I 'had' to find the time to put some make-up on.

I've been told that I am pretty, but it is all an illusion. I scare even myself with my bare reflection sometimes. I won't go out of the house without at least some concealer under my eyes, mascara and blusher. It makes me feel weird, almost naked. I would love to have the confidence to go make-up free, but the odd time I have been to work without a full face of slap, I have been questioned about the state of my health.

I have four DDs, and hope that at least one of them doesn't turn out as vain as her mother .

SBM I don't have a problem with sub cultures because they are sub. It is okay not to be goth, emo, tattooed.

I have a problem with main stream culture adopting a "you should always look your best" stance because it wildly over emphasises the importance of physical appearance, and is making a lot of vulnerable people very unhappy.

There seems to be a whole series of programmes about kids with body image disasters at the moment.....lots of teens going in for surgery because they "need" a better nose, or hair, or boobs or whole face etc.

And yes the message comes predominantly from TV, films, magazines etc. but a substantial part of the message comes from seeing the effort/time/money the people near you put into looking their best. If you would rather have a boob job than save for a house then that is a powerful message to your children that you consider appearance as more important than financial stability. If you spend money on make up rather than a holiday (and it would appear the amounts may be comparable in a year) then that tells our kids you would rather look a bit better than take them on holiday. All this adds up to the idea that appearance is everything and more important than fun times spent together or having a roof over your head. Is it any wonder that kids then panic when they realise they aren't the most attractive in the class?

If you are so attached to your make up then fine - go for it. But at least consider the fact that your children will tend to ascribe value to the things that you ascribe value to. So it isn't just your life you affect when you choose to value appearance over substance.

But ICBINEG, why does appearance and wanting to look your best mean you can't have SUBSTANCE as well?

You'd hate me on sight with my blush and mascara but I have substance also.

Valuing appearance doesn't mean you don't value substance clearly. This is a matter of emphasis and relative importance. The media portray appearance as being infinitely more important than substance (think comments on MP's clothing, on Mary Beards appearance in general, think X-factor etc).

So in order to compensate for that we have, I feel, a duty to broadcast the opposing "who you are is more important than how you look" as well as the "you are amazing just as you are" messages as loud as we can. Nipping off for a boob job because you just can't be happy with small boobs or spending 10 mins of every single day putting on "necessary" makeup just so you feel confident enough to step out the door is sending entirely the opposite message, and reinforcing the appearance matters message.

How anyone can watch these programs about teenagers desperate for surgery and still think that make up is just a bit of cheery fun is completely beyond me.

Either you tell them through your actions that you DO think appearances are important by altering your own wherever possible and hence lead them to contemplate surgery or worse, or you show them through your actions that you don't value appearances highly by facing the world as you are, hopefully giving them the confidence to do the same.

I would love someone to tell me where I can book a holiday for a family of six for approximately £100!

eliza If I walk past you in the street, what can I tell about you? Can I tell you have substance? Can I tell if you are wearing make up just because its fun or because you have deep seated anxieties about your appearance? No.

All I can tell is that you value appearances highly.

If I am a teenage girl then I get exactly the same message. You may be the most wonderful intelligent strong feminist the girl will walk past in a week - but all she will see is yet another woman who values appearances highly.

ICBINEG I work in telly AND wear make up - you'd hate me!

moomin yes well I am as surprised as anyone that the average yearly make up spend is apparently £2000. But then my lifetime make up spend is about £50 quid....

Must be all the fake tan...

I kinda make a rule not to judge on appearances...as you might imagine. But I would feel just a little sad that your personal choices were influencing lots of vulnerable people in a bad way (sad is too strong a word - like 2% sad 98% who gives a toss).

the average yearly make up spend is apparently £2000

That is nonsense, the average woman spends nothing close to £2000 on makeup! £166 a month on makeup? Very rare.

I have no problem with tv as such (don't actually have one as you will no doubt not be surprised to hear) but they could be more representative.....the whole less than averagely attractive half of the population is not represented AT ALL.

And what exactly is wrong with valuing appearance? Appearance is part of who we are.

Don't be sad - my shows tend to be made by women and gay men (so not sure who's 'indoctrinating' us) and get high ratings. So we must be doing something the audiences like.

hmmm I can believe that is the average...but that it is massively biased by a relatively small number of make up maniacs.

A survey of the top few hits in google suggests the number is cooked up by the DM and may be a massive exageration.

2-300 quid seem closer to the mark?

ifancy last time I checked BGT and x-factor were popular shows....what exact merit do you place on being popular?

You should watch Kyle... Many less than beautiful faces to be found there!

kyle?

What merit do I attach? Why, I get a huge amount of satisfaction in entertaining a vast section of the population.

That and being paid enough to afford my beauty habit...

hmmm my experience appearance is a tiny part of who you are. When I meet someone my opinion of them is maybe 10% according to physical appearance. Once you know them a bit that drops to around 2% and once you know them really well you stop noticing physical appearance at all.

According to the media physical appearance is what 95% of the ball game?

I guess the question is when a normalish looking teenage girl is wanting surgery do you think - yup good idea...coz no one is going to take you seriously looking like that. OR do you think you know what in the grand scheme of things no one will actually care if your nose is slightly smaller in the future - it's not worth risking your life over.

ahhh entertaining.....yup best way to do that is to reinforce lazy stereotypes and tell people that what they want to believe is true is actually true....you know shit like if you work hard enough you can achieve anything!

Yeah whatever...

I think well-applied, subtle make up makes pretty much everyone look better. Even skin, less blemishes, eyes emphasised and all that. But I don't think that anyone should ever feel they HAVE to wear it. It's a choice, like styling your hair or clipping it back.
Someone I know was told that she HAD to wear full make-up to work, including blusher. This was the late 90s

You sound a little bitter stressed. Maybe a facial would help?

I love make up. I'd rather be late for work than not apply my makeup.

I had my makeup done professionally when I was a bridesmaid for my friend and it was so amazing I fancied myself I still looked like me, just brighter, clearer, more colourful. I felt wonderful.

I mean, there's makeup and there's makeup. Good makeup should enhance, bad makeup is an artificial mask.

IFS okay so what was 'kyle' and what is a 'facial'....I'll try anything once...

IFS are you actually in front of the cameras?

All the 'it only takes 10 minutes' comments are fair enough, but those ten minutes are time i could be doing something else.

My 'beauty' routine consists of a 5-10 minute shower daily, with shampoo and conditioner, and brushing my hair once a day.

I look fine. Men seem to find me attractive (which is what make up seems to be about), people generally like me and I get half an hour longer in bed than folk who apply heaps of make up and blowdry/straighten their hair daily. Also, my hair and skin seem to be in much better condition than most people's. Every time I go to the hairdresser they can't believe how few split ends I have and I get about 1 spot a month, if that.