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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to not understand how you can fire missiles targeting civilians and it not be a war crime

539 replies

Itsaboatjack · 15/11/2012 23:46

now I'm not especially knowledgable about the problems in the middle east but surely firing missiles into a city intentionally killing civilians is some kind of war crime?

OP posts:
dreamingbohemian · 16/11/2012 13:05

More Beta -- yes, you are totally right about Northern Ireland as well

pinkbraces -- the thing is, the right to self-defence does not give you a blank check. You still need to respond in a proportionate and discriminating manner.

There is no short-term tactical solution to this problem (although Israel's rocket defence systems seem to be working pretty well). The only solution is to do something to politically resolve the conflict, which for various reasons, as pointed out, is not likely to happen.

But the fact that those political responses are not likely, does not mean the military solution is the only solution. It is simply the only solution the current Israeli government is willing to take.

MrsMicawber · 16/11/2012 13:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsMicawber · 16/11/2012 13:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Alisvolatpropiis · 16/11/2012 13:24

Think everybody should read the above link.

PoppyAmex · 16/11/2012 13:24

MrsMicawber, I suspect your post will go unanswered by most people posting in this thread, as they have ignored every single other argument, including the fact that Palestine has had multiple opportunities to reach an agreement and nothing will be acceptable bar total annihilation of the Israel State.

I was there that night, 100 metres down the pier from that nightclub bomb and saw the devastation it caused and how it ripped families apart.

I also watched the families of "martyrs" on Al Jazeera the next day being celebrated and offered lifetime pecuniary support, as well as social status.

None of this matters because people on this thread are prepared to legitimise terrorism because "Israel deserves it".

PoppyAmex · 16/11/2012 13:27

Alis I also think people should read the first comment following that article:

The article above is a typical piece of propaganda full of half truths and distortions designed to demonise Israel.

These articles sometimes work because the writer's know that many won't question their content and they know they'll reinforce prejudices and biased opinions.

  1. Hamas puts its rocket launchers in urban areas deliberately, knowing that they will score propaganda points in any civilians are killed.

  2. Hamas has been shown (there are videos on YouTube) to put civilians into buildings that have recently been used as launch sites. They then cry foul if the building is hit by the IAF

  3. Hamas is not interested in compromise or deals or concessions. When they released on Israeli prisoner in exchange for over 1,000 Palestinian prisoners, those that returned to Gaza vowed to continue the cycle of violence. Convicted terrorists went home to plan more attacks.

You can't negotiate with an organisation that doesn't even think you have right to exist.

Alisvolatpropiis · 16/11/2012 13:30

Nobody is saying "Israel deserves it" PoppyAmex.

You say it is Israel's right to defend itself. Of course it is.

Is it not also Palestine's right to defend themselves against the erosion of their land? Against an onslaught of violence that has been going on for years? Israel far outweighs Palestine in terms of military power, technology and sheer numbers.

MrsMicawber · 16/11/2012 13:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dreamingbohemian · 16/11/2012 13:32

Sorry, but collective punishment is not lawful, or moral. Do you seriously think every single Gazan is out to kill Israelis? That all those women and children deserve to suffer because of the illegal acts of others?

There's more than 1.5 million Gazans. You're basically saying they all deserve what they're getting.

And as for this:

"If a Gazan is killed by an Israeli, it will be in a military attack by a serving soldier. Not in a nightclub by a teenage suicide bomber."

If that Israeli soldier is violating the laws of war, then this distinction really doesn't matter. And in any event, the Palestinians do not have a military or soldiers so by default all of their attacks will involve militants/terrorists.

And as I said earlier, the use of human shields does not give the other side the right to disregard those civilian lives.

Alisvolatpropiis · 16/11/2012 13:36

The comment is merely made by a reader. There is no proof that the article is propaganda.

I am absolutely not defending the course of action Hamas are taking. It is abhorrent on so many levels.

It is not hard to understand why a country that has been almost completely eradicated does not look favourably on Israel's existence,however wrong that is.

I can't see how Israel and Palestine will ever be able to compromise. One can only hope that they can.

dreamingbohemian · 16/11/2012 13:39

x-post

I am sorry for the losses you have suffered and the things you have had to witness.

Terrorism is a terrible thing. I have my own experiences which I would rather not get into.

But for me personally, it does not justify a disproportionate response, which is what I think Israel has done (and the US, with the war in Iraq and about 90% of the war on terror).

MrsMicawber · 16/11/2012 13:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FreudiansSlipper · 16/11/2012 13:43

please do not make out that what the israeli soldiers are doing is not as cruel because it is shooting at children throwing stones the shooting of Muhammad al-Durrah brought the worlds attention to how the palestinians live

the problem now is the so many on both sides are full of hatred and this hatred is being used by both in power young men and women wanting to inflict harm on their enemy

I do not deny the cruelty the Israeli soldiers have suffered but the conditions these people have been forced to live is the real problem here you treat people like that this is what happens

PoppyAmex · 16/11/2012 13:44

And in any event, the Palestinians do not have a military or soldiers so by default all of their attacks will involve militants/terrorists."

This is utterly ridiculous! East Timor never had a military or soliders either and their resistance forces fought without ever committing terrorist attacks.

I'm disgusted with the fact that you refuse to acknowledge the fact that the Palestinians have a horrendous history of violating Human Rights when it comes to Israeli soliders and civilians. Even when people that lived it are typing their experiences here and telling you about it.

Alisvolatpropiis · 16/11/2012 13:47

I did say I wasn't defending the course of action Hamas are taking.

Civilians never deserve to lose their lives. Terrorism is a disgusting act,born out of cowardice.

Neither Palestine nor Israel is behaving well.

But...governments and military actions aside...the Palestinian people have suffered greatly since 1948. It is disingenuous to say otherwise.

Both sides need to consider what will happen if this current conflict overspills into Egypt. This is a grave situation for both nations to be in,some compromise must be found before all out war is declared.

Princesstwat · 16/11/2012 13:48

Speaking as someone with family ties in both countries , I have to be blunt and if I get flamed so be it. Israel are very clever in their propaganda against Palestine, they are and will continue to be thieves of land that is not theirs, and they will continue doing as they like whilst America back them up and keep spouting the same 'jihadist' 'war on terror' bullshit. Hamas do what they do to protect their own people, people that the Israelis slaughter daily and keep playing the anti semitism card. Israel is a disgrace, the US is equally as bad, and the Palestinians will continue to be labelled as terrorists and jihadists so long as the anti islam propaganda stands. Thats all I have to say.

ButHeNeverDid · 16/11/2012 13:48

"does not justify the disproportionate response"

What would be proportionate?

Perhaps Israel should fire a rocket into Gaza for every rocket fired into Israel?

Would that be proportionate?

dreamingbohemian · 16/11/2012 13:50

From a Palestinian perspective terrorism is a defence -- the only one they have. They don't have an army or proper weapons, they can't physically protect themselves from Israeli invasion, airstrikes, blockade, etc. The only thing they can do to hurt Israel is strike its most vulnerable targets.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying this to justify what they are doing, obviously terrroism is a war crime and it's appalling the things they have done. I'm just pointing out that it's really the only military response they have. But as they have found out, terrorism is usually a pretty bad strategy.

PoppyAmex · 16/11/2012 13:52

"Hamas do what they do to protect their own people"

Including using them as human shields and setting up bases in schools.

Anyway, I can say the same thing: Israel do what they do to protect their own people.

dreamingbohemian · 16/11/2012 13:55

x-post

Poppy, where have I not acknowledged that Palestinians have committed war crimes too?

I think it was one of my first posts, I said both sides have committed war crimes, as is typical in war.

What I'm arguing against is the idea that it's okay for Israel to commit war crimes, because the Palestinians do it too. I think it's wrong for everyone to do these things.

LittleBairn · 16/11/2012 13:57

YANBU I won't say any more because the way I feel about Israil is considered very unPC.

Alisvolatpropiis · 16/11/2012 13:57

I don't believe seizing land from the Palestinians could ever seriously be argued as being done by Israel to protect it's own people.

And we should keep in mind that is at the root of Palestine's anger towards Israel.

FreudiansSlipper · 16/11/2012 14:00

WHat Isreal are also doing oppressing the Palestinians. people can not live like this they fight back in whatever way they can

we call that form of fighting back terrorism because it does not play by our rules the rules of those who have superior force or can afford to set these standards when it push come to shove rules go out of the window we have seen this time and time again here, in Iraq and Vietnam. It's war it is cruel whatever name you want to call it

RedToothbrush · 16/11/2012 14:00

I was in Warrington when it was bombed, and its kind of lead me on a strange journey through life. I understand, and to a point, sympathise with why we were bombed. But I can not condone it. I have a strange interest in conflict (and more to the point, peace as a result)

Last year, me and DH went backpacking through both Serbia and Bosnia (and have a few stories to tell from it!).

The lasting impression I had from the trip, was an enormous sense of sadness and waste in both countries. It was clear just how much propaganda and the leaders recked both countries - and how much our own media shaped our perceptions. There is still so much lingering pain and indeed hostility just below the surface.

Before we went we had heard an incredible amount of bad stuff about Serbia. In truth, we didn't really want to go there, but we couldn't avoid it, with where else we wanted to go. And on our first day there one of their biggest 'cities' Nis we had something of a shock finding dictators we find unpalatable being lauded as figures of respect in a cafe. At the time it was the midst of the Libya conflict and seeing a cardboard cut out of Gadaffi was actually quite frightening. But this little city had a story to tell.

In 1999 it was bombed by NATO several times and a lot of civilians were killed including attacks which Serbians and a number of people outside the country, believe should be regarded as a war crimes. An awful lot of resentment and hostility built up as a result and the hero worship of these dictators in the cafe was less to do with their actual policies but more about standing up to The West and sharing the same sense of being an unfairly targeted victim. A strange sense of comradeship, based only on a common 'enemy'. I found it impossible not to have sympathy with their point of view and feel guilt about how our country played a part, no matter what the justification about Kosovo was. Its a pretty complex idea to truly get your head round because its so at odds with your own 'reality'. These were families like mine who didn't really care about politics. I think until you actually can put yourself in a place its impossible to really think freely about what people REALLY think and what is REALLY important to them. You do get seduced by the idea that X is bad or Y is the good guy even if you are a very intelligent person.

You have to also remember how the Serbian press, did spin (and continue to spin) the story to their people and how it created nationalistic pride and a sense that they were under attack after acting in defence of their nation rather than having aggressive policy. VERY few people see their own nation as the bad guy in conflict; the state defends its own against those who try and kill you. Our own media is guilty of similar things.

Instead of coming across people who would be resentful and hate us, we found THE nicest friendliest people I've ever met anywhere in the world, despite the language barrier. It quickly became apparent they were fairly used to German backpackers but Brits in that part of Serbia were very rare still. When they found out that we were British and wanted to see their country, they were so happy and pleased. It was almost like they felt happy to be 'accepted'. It was a very strange experience. And when you went around shops you saw the consumerism and the desire to be like the rest of Europe. It true it wasn't all good though. There is clearly a very big divide in the country and much racism remaining. Seeing copies of Mein Kampf in pride of place in bookshops in Belgrade was alarming.

But it did teach me a few things, and to be very mindful of saying that we are without fault and that the average person on the ground really, truly actually believes in bad things freely. You just see things from the point of view you are given and its people in power that are truly to blame. Everyone one of us is brainwashed to a point, and I have to say that dreamingbohemian is completely right when she talks about the perils of forming an opinion, and how prejudice you can be (without realising it). People tend to do bad things because they feel they have no other choice and that is the only way they can get a certain message across. Of course its not, but thats how they feel, and you have to look at how you get to that point instead of passing comment on the pure horror of certain atrocities.

I can not comprehend how I would be able to make rational decisions and be able to not be full of the desire to retaliate if I was attacked over and over again in my own home. The politics and history behind it, would largely cease to be relevant. It would be just about the fact that my house and family were being attacked and wanting to defend myself. It becomes that basic. I believe that most people on both sides want peace and the right to live freely, and thats it. The politics are for people in power and have egos and loose all sight of what people really want and create demons and feed the fear of the people for their own ends. Precisely, because it helps to keep them in power. In the case of Israel and Palestine, there is actually little incentive for peace on the part of the leadership. Its a way of life, and they have the respect of their own from the effects of conflict.

I still go back to the idea of freedom fighters and terrorists and being in the eye of the beholder. And I do have to ask anyone who is Pro-Palestinian how they would feel if they saw a suicide bomber kill an Israeli child in front of you whilst out shopping, and anyone who is Pro-Israel how they would feel if they saw a targeted rocket attack kill a Palestinian child in their own home in front of you. If you can honestly say it wouldn't affect you and you don't think it would change your perceptions, I think you are pretty cold, heartless and ruthless individual who lacks any humanity at all. I think even hardened soliders used to war still struggle with it.

People are fighting in Israel and Palestine because they are doing it out of fear and sometimes hopelessness against a nameless faceless mass which has been demonised in one way or another and they think rightly or wrongly, will do the same to them, if they don't do it first.

Frankly, I think the vast majority of us, lack the capacity to understand and comprehend this because it is just so far removed from our own realities. You act most on what you see, hear and feel with your own eyes not from stepping back and looking at the whole picture. Simply because we are human.