to be biting my tongue and think they are being twits about jobs/unpaid experience?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I am this close to snapping back about this so just want to see if I am BU or if you can tell me to be a nicer person.

A few days ago I was asked to publicize a competition which has been set up to give people an unpaid position, while they're looking for the paid equivalent. They'd also get space to work and access to various subscription-only stuff you'd need. Jobs are very competitive so there are lots of people who will be in the position of not having found one yet, so the fact this is competitive too, means it would be better on your CV than a blank.

Obviously I know it won't be for everyone. It isn't anything to do with me as an initiative - I was literally just asked to spread the word. So I did. People now keep responding and asking what it's for, saying they don't see why it's made competitive 'as they could just give it to everyone' and saying it's pointless as it doesn't pay anything. I replied a couple of times saying why I thought it was being offered and I'm now giving up.

Am I being unreasonable to think they are being idiots? Here they are, they haven't managed to get jobs, but they're turning their noses up at this and seem to have no understanding why there might be competition for it. I made it clear I am just passing on information and am still getting these stupid snooty comments about how they wouldn't choose to do this, etc. etc.

I am so tempted to reply pointing out that beggars can't be choosers. AIBU?

I don't know... I think a phd is a bit different.

In theory anyway, a phd means you are an expert in your field -- in some cases, a world-class expert. That doesn't mean you should automatically walk into a job but I think most people feel it should put them beyond the stage of having to take unpaid positions to improve their CV.

I would rather see universities simply extend the period of affiliation/Athens privileges for say 18-24 months after awarding the phd for all students.

fucking - well, I wish people employing us in academia would recognize that!

It makes me steaming furious that it is still, in many jobs, acceptable to insist candidates must only have spent a certain amount of time since they started their PhD, before applying for a job. Because the assumption is, if you take too long, you must have been lazy, right? No, wrong, you might have been busy earning a living on the side, caring for children, caring for sick parents ...all of those things ordinary people have to do.

It is immensely privileged.

As to 'daddy found it for me ...'

dreaming I agree - why not give Athens to all? Why, as in the case of this thread topic, should there be a competition to, essentially, retain research facilities? So you can work then unpaid.

In my case, my university actually did provide Athens/ library access rights for a good 18 months post-PhD but as it didn't provide any extra funding, I was not in a position to use them, as I had to EARN MONEY, having overshot my PhD funding period by four or five months to write up. I was in debt and simply had to get a paid job. None in academic or research existed in my area (both academic and geographical). Now, I could do with those library rights, but they are gone.

LRD, exactly. I might now be in a position to continue my research, but as it's a year or two after my viva, I'm now seen as 'out of touch', left it too long, lazy, whatever. If I was in a position of economic privilege, this wouldn't have happened.

Btw, a PhD is not the equivalent of an honours degree. That makes a nonsense of it.

No, sorry, I didn't mean a PhD is the equivalent of an honours degree. I put that badly.

What I mean is, there is an attiude I am seeing in undergraduates, which is, 'look, I paid for this degree! How dare you now give me one that is the bare minimum?'

And I was wondering whether maybe saying 'look, I am too good to bother with trying to publish/buffing up my CV, I have got a PhD' is not dissimilar?

It seems not unreasonable to me that employers in academia will hope for more than a PhD. But then, I'm wondering why I say that as I know perfectly well that to publish during your PhD, in my subject, you must either be brilliant, willing to publish a shite article, willing to take longer over your PhD, or willing to compromise your hoped-for book. So maybe it is unfair to compare the two at all.

It's just, given the job market is as it is, do they not see that if they all pour scorn on this offer, it won't be offered again, and others (ME!!!) who might have appreciated it won't be able to?

Maybe it's a question of how you 'sell' it to people then. Something like 'We're offering a limited number of free journal subscriptions if you're interested' would probably get a different response than, say, 'we're recruiting for a competitive but unpaid researcher position.' The whole unpaid internships thing is a pretty contentious issue at the moment, and even if that's not what this is, the way it's being presented to them probably makes it seem like it is.

I don't think it's the same thing.

I don't think these people are saying they're too good to publish or buff their CV -- I mean, aren't all phds trying to publish? Isn't that a given?

I think they're reacting to the idea that this is supposed to be such a great opportunity when, really, it's not all that.

And maybe it's good if they scorn it, if that means that the university comes up with something better that benefits more students. I mean, really, is this the best they can do? A desk and a password for one student?

ephiny - yes, I think you are right. And I will pass it on.

dreaming - well, but, if they don't want this to help them publish, fair enough: but why sneer at it for others?

They are saying they need proper jobs.

I see their point: but we all need proper jobs. We're not getting them. I am applying at the moment and I know how competitive it is. I would love to have something like this, that would tell me for sure that I won't need to worry about fees next year.

They are saying they don't want to bother because it's an insult to them. Well, ok, but then, do they get to complain about money after turning this down?!

Btw, I do take your point (and morebeta's point) that I need to look at the bigger picture, and yes, maybe I should boycott this in order to show the university it could do better. I don't know.

Floggingmolly, you don't get it. Lots of this 'entitled generation' as you so charmingly call them are also having to service crippling debts from university. This, as well as the distinction between working for not much and working for free, makes their position a great deal less privileged than yours 18 years ago. For you to stick the boot in to people who would kill to enjoy the opportunity that you had is at best deeply inappropriate.

But how would doing this help them monetarily?

Why would turning down an unpaid job mean they can't complain about money?

I don't really see how it helps them to publish. It doesn't give them more hours to work (the way a paid job would), I guess the main benefit is the Athens but lots of people will still have access to that somehow.

dreaming - well, if they don't get this, they have to pay for library access, right?

So they're out of pocket.

And not being able to afford library access does make it harder to publish. I know it shouldn't but it does.

LRD - just had a thought inspired by the a few of your and other peoples' posts above.

I do accept that might be an issue of selling and perception and understanding.

However, I do wonder whether the fact that students now have to borrow to do an undergrad degree means they just dont have the luxury to do a Phd unpaid and then face years more unpaid internship. Making people pay to do degrees piles a lot of pressure on the bearer of a freshly minted PhD to get a paying job straight away! In other words students are going to be increasingly hard nosed about money and you are unlucky in getting the first wave of that.

Universities cant keep taking a slice out of people and perhaps your university may just be unaware of the financial reality. After all most senior academics did their degrees fully funded with grants and so on and many academics are not exactly noted for empathy with people.

Maybe that is it morebeta. That certainly makes sense.

My generation are among the last who didn't pay high tuition fees. We graduated in 2007. So mostly, our careers are, frankly, fucked.

For me, getting funding to do a PhD was amazing and a huge privilege. My DH and I lived off my grant for my first year and it wasn't especially fun, but I was so conscious here I was! With a job! That paid!

Frankly I'd have licked people's shoes to say thanks if they'd asked. It really felt like that.

I am coming round to your point that maybe students can afford to be more discriminating, and make more of a point of what they deserve. I do wish universities would just accept, for example, that an Arts PhD isn't compatible with REF. Nor is Arts in general really.

I do think my supervisors try to sympathize. I can rant about notable failures of empathy (!!), though, so you may be right.

I guess it depends -- as noted earlier, some unis do continue to give library access for free or cheaply.

Even if it saved me a few hundred pounds, really does that mean I can't complain about there being no jobs and having no money? Library fees are not the difference between being poor and not.

Wel, yes, but ours doesn't so we're all in the same boat.

You're right, though, of course we can all complain about no jobs.

I suppose I mean, I'm not massively thrilled that I'm paying my 4th year fees and they could get the same for free, but they're insulted by the idea of it and won't apply.

x-post

Well maybe that's a bit of a difference then, I did not get funding (I have loans and worked). So I don't feel particularly grateful or boot-licking to anyone.

It's also why I would be a bit at a university who did not deign to give me any funding to now generously allow me to compete for the privilege of an unpaid research position.

I feel immensely lucky to have got funding. It is a huge thing. I just wouldn't have done it without, you know? Maybe that was naive in itself, but no-one would have given me loans of that size (I know, because I did ask to start off with). So it felt like such a huge thing to me. Likely it doesn't feel like that to others.

I do think you're right, if you've worked your way through, you should rightly feel more in line for funding now, surely.

But this isn't the same as 4th year -- these are for post-viva, right? You're paying fees (as am I!) because we're still enrolled and using department services and seeing our supervisors and all that. It's not just for library fees.

Flangelina. I grew up in Ireland, where a university education has to be paid for. Upfront. Think £6000 per year, payable in advance, before any living expenses.
It tends to keep third level education the province of the very well off; and certainly out of my reach.
The only way I could gain a qualification was to work my arse off doing grunt work in an Accountancy practice, living at home because I couldn't afford to rent my own place or feed myself (no benefits for students either), until I could finally earn enough to live independently. It was no walk in the park, actually.

For me it was like this: I looked for a job. The one I got paid minimum wage and it was the PhD. If I'd got another minimum wage job before the PhD, chances are I'd have held out or been very conflicted. But I did know I didn't have very long to hold out, so I couldn't have spent too long faffing around for something. If that makes sense.

dreaming - oh, sure, you are right, there are differences. I'm just a tad bitter! I don't want them turning it down to mean it's not offered next year.

I don't feel more in line for funding, but having spent the last few years getting paid (occasinally well!) for my skills I don't really want to go backwards. I feel like I'm sort of past that point and, as I noted earlier, I see that my friends who have done well are people who do not work for free.

Of course you should feel lucky to be funded, but I think it's good to keep your sense of gratitude in perspective. Yes, it was nice of them, but it's an investment, not a gift -- presumably now you will go out and get a not terribly well paid teaching job and educate the next generation of students. Their funding you doesn't mean you should settle for less than you deserve.

Obviously we all do unpaid work as academics, it's expected, but sometimes it's just a bit too much and I think this idea as advertised is an example of that.

"I would say about 80% of the people I know who got fully funded for postgrad work were people who didn't really need the funding."

Back when I was flirting with academia I knew the heiress to a billion pound family business who was offered (on merit) a fully funded PhD.

She turned it down because she didn't need it.

She was American though and appalled by the idea of someone missing out on funding so someone as rich as her could have it.

:)

"AThing, I sincerely doubt the 'untalented children of the rich' are going to benefit from what is, essentially, free access to the library, a workspace and a line on the CV. "

Of course, I was responding to the immediately preceding posts about journalists etc doing internships.

I work in media. It's a problem :o

The "Daddy found it for me" man was hysterical (unintentionally so). Daddy had also told him to apply for the job of my assistant. Bizarrely, I knew one of his referees, and asked him about this chap. "I don't really know him. He's a friend of Daddy's." It was like Tim Nice But Dim.

I've had two assistants in recent years with a similar academic background; straight As all the way through school and a first from an RG university, plus a Master's from somewhere else prestigious. One had worked all the way through - fast food places, nursing homes, call centres, sandwich shops, bar work. The other hadn't and had done a couple of internships before she got this job. The worker would cheerfully do anything you threw at her - photocopying, filing, general office admin crap. Little Miss Intern used to sneer "I didn't get my first class degree to do your filing." (Which part of the word "assistant" in the job spec did you not understand? I asked her.) You might understand from this why I've been put off interns!

dreaming - you're probably right. You usually are!

I do feel the first in line for funding should be people with no other source of funding, though.

AThing - Wow, that is shit. I would have been livid (the American lass).

I get what you're saying about the media. And academia too.

I keep hoping it'll get better and I am worrying this is perpetuating it.