to be biting my tongue and think they are being twits about jobs/unpaid experience?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I am this close to snapping back about this so just want to see if I am BU or if you can tell me to be a nicer person.

A few days ago I was asked to publicize a competition which has been set up to give people an unpaid position, while they're looking for the paid equivalent. They'd also get space to work and access to various subscription-only stuff you'd need. Jobs are very competitive so there are lots of people who will be in the position of not having found one yet, so the fact this is competitive too, means it would be better on your CV than a blank.

Obviously I know it won't be for everyone. It isn't anything to do with me as an initiative - I was literally just asked to spread the word. So I did. People now keep responding and asking what it's for, saying they don't see why it's made competitive 'as they could just give it to everyone' and saying it's pointless as it doesn't pay anything. I replied a couple of times saying why I thought it was being offered and I'm now giving up.

Am I being unreasonable to think they are being idiots? Here they are, they haven't managed to get jobs, but they're turning their noses up at this and seem to have no understanding why there might be competition for it. I made it clear I am just passing on information and am still getting these stupid snooty comments about how they wouldn't choose to do this, etc. etc.

I am so tempted to reply pointing out that beggars can't be choosers. AIBU?

*It's simply presented as competition for a non-stipendiary post.

I am absolutely sure this isn't intended for people to do instead of a paid job - it is intended as a stop gap while someone is failing to get a paid academic job.*

Firstly, it's not a post. It's some desk space and a library card. Come on.

maka - oh, that is horrible.

I'm so sorry to hear about it.

Honestly I think either the work is useful and valuable to someone in which case they should pay for it (whether it's goverment funding or industry or private sponsors or whoever), or it's just the individual's personal interest and self-improvement in which case they should probably do it as a hobby in the evenings when they get home from their actual job.

Unpaid internships or whatever we're calling them seem to fall into a gap between those two things, I'm not sure they're helpful for anyone tbh. If there are no jobs for these people in academia, there are no jobs. Offering made-up unpaid positions doesn't change that.

In the sciences, you can get LOADS of authors on a paper, everyone is either wanting to be first author (this is good for the CV) or last author (It tends to be the group leader/corresponding author who goes here).

I knew someone who was into medieval poetry once - he was weird!!! and not in a good way.

Funding is a great bugbear of mine - I am in the middle of trying to get a fellowship for returning scientists, they like my proposal, they like me - but can't get funding. Its for breast cancer research and the reason they can't get funding is because they struggle to get funding for medical research more than any of the other sciences (it boils my piss i tell ya!). Hardly anyone in the department is being funded and it is crippling the department, the university continue to charge extortionate fees for the space (so the same amount per person as a humanities student, who basically needs a seat in the library!) so it gets screwed over every which way. That and industry taking its business elsewhere - is there any wonder the economy is going down the drain!! grrrrrrrr

mama - ok, maybe they shouldn't call it that (and I have said, I'm going to email and give feedback from people that the terminology seems confusing).

But I'm not sure I needed the 'come on' since I have nothing to do with it except not wanting to see it stopped before I get to it.

Secondly, speaking as someone who had to leave academia because they couldn't afford to work for free, I can tell you that doing the necessary research (unpaid) to advance my academic career AND actually earn a living to keep a rood over my head (and pay the mortgage) was not possible.

No wonder people would resent this. I don't blame them. Why should they compete for something like this?

Erm ... ephiny, I think you may have summed up what the government thinks of arts subjects!

'Honestly I think either the work is useful and valuable to someone in which case they should pay for it (whether it's goverment funding or industry or private sponsors or whoever), or it's just the individual's personal interest and self-improvement in which case they should probably do it as a hobby in the evenings when they get home from their actual job.'

All arts research is in the latter category, in that no-one will pay for it directly.

I think presenting it as a competition gives the impression that its more of a publicity generator for the university. Giving a similar candidate a little bit of ad hoc teaching or a little bit of paid research from the budget would be "nice". This would also allow them use of the research facilities and a desk, as well as the respect of their colleagues and something worthy of putting on their cv. This is what most universities do, as a matter of course, without proclaiming that its a "competition".

I think its in danger of backfiring, because it makes the university sound as though its trying to get free publicity.

LOL at research being done in the evenings after their real jobs!!!

Sorry, the 'come on' was unfair - but in my defence I am actually speaking from bitter, personal experience of the academic world.

whatnow - I promise I'm not very weird.

LRD - "You don't show other people your research, you know"

Err... I used to be an academic and that is the point of research.

If you want me to be blunt I will explain exactly how the exploitation works.

Unpaid academic internship research posts are used as a perk by some universities to retain senior research fellows and professors. They get told that they can hire two interns who they will supervise. The univeristy pays nothing but the senior research fellow or professor gets the grunt work of his/her basic research done for free which they then publish later once the intern has gone.

It is totally exploitative and it is a growing trend because research grants are being cut. Senior researchers and professors demand higher pay and perks in return for staying so the university gets their REF points. The university cant pay research money it doesnt have so it offers unoaid internships to bridge the hole in its budget.

If it doesnt cave in the senior research fellow or professor leaves for a university that will.

"It sounds as if it can be done in tandem with paid work, so must be possible to do without losing unemployment benefit. "

Sadly no, amicissimma. If you're studying, doing an internship or volunteering more than a few hours a week, you lose unemployment benefit.

Hindering people from doing the things they'd love to do to improve their employability.

Ah, fair enough mama. I can get behind that.

I'm sort of torn between being angry that something like this exists - because I wish after working hard for three years there was a job for me - and feeling, well, ok, but there isn't necessarily going to be a job straightaway, and this is better than nothing.

Everyone I know who's finished their PhD has done research in the evenings after their real jobs at some stage, I think it's normal. I wish it were normal to line up a postdoc straight after the viva, but I've not really seen it happen. Even with the really stunning people.

beta, honestly, I understand you were an academic and I am sorry I can't agree with you, but this is just not how my subject works.

It is totally normal to publish something that few people, maybe no-one, has previously seen. Honestly, it is.

My postdoc was lined up a few months before my viva. Not unusual in the sciences (or at least from my experience and that of colleagues)

Btw, there is very little 'grunt work' to be done in my field, that you could farm out. Occasionally for big projects, someone will pay an intern/student to do some transcription. I imagine you could also farm out your proof-reading, if you so chose. That's pretty much it.

And this position, scheme, whatever we call it, is not intended for that - it's for someone's own research.

I'm not in the sciences, mama.

OK. I believe you. Never seen it im my subject.

I have though seen several professors and senior fellows in my subject brazenly advertising for unpaid interns to do basic research for them - as if it was some kind of honour.

No promise of a name on the paper either.

Whatnow I once had to cite a paper with 60+ authors on it (was fun doing the BibTeX citation for that one ). It was Nature, so I guess everyone wanted in...

And I'm not saying it's ideal to be doing your (medieval poetry or whatever) research as an evening hobby, but if no one is prepared to pay you for your time or your results, what better choice do you have?

It really is pretty normal in mine, beta. I did say a long way back in the thread, I am pretty sure this is to do with subject differences.

We don't really do multi-author papers - there's just a few oddballs who publish as couples, but it's rare. So there is less scope for sharing work. And if you're at this stage, just after the PhD and struggling for money, you're not likely to go to a conference and present the work, so probably no-one will see it except a kindly supervisor giving you a read-through.

ephiny - ouch! 60?!

Actually I think Ephiny has summed up what the government thinks about all subjects. Even scientists are having to demonstrate immediate "impact" and added value now. And unsurprisingly they're not very happy about it either.

Beta still seems to be talking about internships that are specifically attached to a particular academic with a particular project, and clearly isn't reading anyone else's posts.

It's a nice idea and it could be a stop gap for somebody who really wants to stay on in research. It may be helpful. What support and mentoring would be available for the recipient? If they are fairly junior, that could be very useful.

ephiny - well, keep applying for jobs and hope to get one in the end, I think. Obviously people do give it up. But very few PhDs go straight into a job, and many more will get a job in the year after finishing, so you go into it hoping it will be a temporary hard patch, if that makes sense?