to be biting my tongue and think they are being twits about jobs/unpaid experience?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I am this close to snapping back about this so just want to see if I am BU or if you can tell me to be a nicer person.

A few days ago I was asked to publicize a competition which has been set up to give people an unpaid position, while they're looking for the paid equivalent. They'd also get space to work and access to various subscription-only stuff you'd need. Jobs are very competitive so there are lots of people who will be in the position of not having found one yet, so the fact this is competitive too, means it would be better on your CV than a blank.

Obviously I know it won't be for everyone. It isn't anything to do with me as an initiative - I was literally just asked to spread the word. So I did. People now keep responding and asking what it's for, saying they don't see why it's made competitive 'as they could just give it to everyone' and saying it's pointless as it doesn't pay anything. I replied a couple of times saying why I thought it was being offered and I'm now giving up.

Am I being unreasonable to think they are being idiots? Here they are, they haven't managed to get jobs, but they're turning their noses up at this and seem to have no understanding why there might be competition for it. I made it clear I am just passing on information and am still getting these stupid snooty comments about how they wouldn't choose to do this, etc. etc.

I am so tempted to reply pointing out that beggars can't be choosers. AIBU?

Of course the point of research is to publish, but until you have proved your hypothesis or refined it to a point you can publish it, you would be mad to be telling all and sundry about it, if it is a point of paritcular interest you can bet bottom dollar there will be other groups working on similar things. Then of course it all gets competitive because of the funding issues.

Can't imagine you get much competition with medievil poetry though eh, except from weirdos ;-)

I'll ask, mama, I think perhaps that's another point they should have made clearer, about whether there will be any official support or whether it's just the usual 'goodwill of your old supervisor' (though this does seem to work pretty well from what I've seen).

We weirdos are a happy bunch, whatnow. Our name is legion, for we are many thousand (or, well, more than you'd think, anyway.)

Out of all the people in my department who did PhDs the same time as me, only one of them stayed in academia and even now she has had to go into university admin as funding has dried up. Such a shame. My supervisor has left academia and me, for some mad reason after a 5 year break, I'm trying to get back into it - i am a bit of a weirdo though!

If you are staying on at the same place then perhaps. Would the research need to be distinct from that of the area of the PhD or the previous supervisor if remaining at the same institution? Novel research?

I'd encourage the incumbent to learn about boundaries and to protect themselves. A little bit jaded! I am going to approach the dean with suggestions as to how the institution can support workers in vulnerable positions

The other thing that may be different about humanities, I guess, is that being attached to an institution gives you a source of feedback, which you can use selectively to keep your self-direction on track. You may not present all your work to everyone in advance of publication, but you probably go to seminars and conferences as an attendee, you may present small papers on aspects of your work within the institution, you can approach particular experts for help, chat to other researchers in your field. You're not isolated in that sense.

Occasionally, but not that rarely, you come across a point in an article where the author says "I am grateful for x for drawing my attention to this site/artefact etc" and it arises out of this kind of contact.

Yes I guess so...but if this is a position that's going to affect unemployment benefits, surely only fairly wealthy people can afford to take it, at least if they don't want to be starving on the streets while they wait for a paid job.

And yes this is probably the most stupid thing I've ever said - but can't they just start applying for jobs a few months earlier? If it's just a timing issue between finishing the PhD and starting the job they expect to get within a year?

Though in my experience many PhDs do have their job lined up before finishing (the difficult bit is if you haven't submitted by the time you start work, and you have to find the time and motivation to finish writing up in the evenings...and hope you don't get too many corrections!).

Beta- I'm keeping an eye out for my work appearing under my supervisors name. He made it clear he wanted to submit it but has gone silent. My friend, who did her PhD with him, says its not unusual of him to submit it without your name on it.

If it appears on his list of publications with my name on, I will be contacting the journal involved.

65 author paper :)

Iodine, out of curiosity - how do you think the journal will respond and what steps will they take? If you are arguing that your input has not been recognised, how do you prove it you should be an author? Do you know of any cases that have done this and succeeded? The weasel promised me no publications.... but W needs them for tenure.

Ephiny it is absolutely a problem that not everyone will be able to afford to take it, yes. This is the problem right across the humanities. Funding is very tight at every stage and many talented researchers do drop out for lack of it.

What you want to do about that really depends on your view of the humanities and the worth of its research.

Good luck with it whatnow!

mama - yep, it's for people staying in the same place. And no, no constraints on what they research.

mulled - yep, that sounds like my experience. I always love those 'I am grateful to x' comments, especially if I remember the conference - it makes it feel like a real community.

ephiny - but they'd do this alongside a paid job. As to applying - no, not a stupid question at all. But lots of jobs will specify you must have a PhD or be near completion, and the major drawback for most people is simply that they haven't published enough within 3/4 years. My brother is in another subject and finds it worked differently there - you publish as you go along, and then you hand in a PhD that is effectively a collection of papers (rather than the basis for your first book), and you expect to get a job pretty much out of the PhD. I do think there are serious issues with my subject area, and I can get furious about how it privileges those who are well-off.

I just don't think this particular thing is actually part of the privilge.

Epiphiny, i'd do it (cept my knowledge of poetry doesn't extend much further than revolting rhymes!) and i am piss poor. I would of course do it on the understanding that as soon as paid work became available i'd be off. I do this now actually, but as i said upthread, when it isn't paid, it makes it harder to be commited to. I think if i were younger, living at home maybe, able to support it with bar work etc i'd be quite happy to do this during the day. I am not very money orientated, but sadly life demands that we have it. I am far from wealthy and couldn't afford to commit to this full-time, i could however if i were 23 and still living at home.

maybe a few more than 65

adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2012Natur.486..207T

Wow. These links are something else!

Oh I see, (I think). I'd missed that it was supposed to be done alongside a paid job. There's less of a privilege issue there, then.

Yes in science you'd normally expect (or hope!) to publish during your Masters and/or PhD. Usually supervisors are keen to get papers out (though tell that to mine who's taking months to get back to me with comments on my latest draft...). I can see it would be an issue applying for academic jobs if you haven't published yet.

Of course in science you are also gaining skills and experience in the lab which can qualify you for jobs in industry, I guess maybe in humanities/arts the practical skills you learn, while I'm sure they're valuable, aren't so specifically 'employable'?

Well, I assume it is. There's certainly the scope to do it alongside, and I don't see who wouldn't.

I think you're right about the dreaded 'transferable skills'. I've learned a lot about teaching, which is useful, and my medieval Latin and palaeography are pretty good, but oddly enough they're not what your average job cries out for.

But then you know that when you start into an arts subject, I think - you're not going into it thinking you'll swap out into industry.

(Crikey, who knew job experience in academia could be such a hot topic?!)

Mamakoula- Well if I submitted work under my own name that was actually someone elses, I would expect to be called up for plagiarism. I can't see the university looking on it favourably either as it's something they drum into their students.

We-ell, I'm with whoever said it would be pretty tough to do this and really make a difference to your publication record with it, alongside doing a paid job. I couldn't. But then maybe I wouldn't make the cut.

And my work was for my final year project at university so I have a whole report written that proves it was my work.

I've also seen the argument that the intellectual input was limited therefore it was a technical role = no need to be included on authorship. Personally I opt for a more inclusive approach of if you did any of hte work (including as a technician) and this was important for the submitted work then you have a claim to be included as authors but not all places work that way. However, I have seen technicians (and undergrad students) left off of papers

Let's just hope it doesn't come to having to argue it, mamakoula. But I would be prepared to fight to the death (ok maybe not that far, but I would kick up a MASSIVE fuss!).

Keep your eyes open and ears to the ground! Perhaps write or give a phone call to see how it's going and to offer help if it is needed? A reminder of what this means to you?

On the plus side, a friend recently found out that her undergrad project was included in a paper submitted for review... 7 years later. It's not all doom and gloom.

Despite co-writing the grant and setting several projects up, and doing a lot of the groundwork as well as getting grad students established in their research.... I have been promised that I will get no publications. W knows that I desperately need them.

I'd missed that it was supposed to be done alongside a paid job. There's less of a privilege issue there, then.

My issue with this is, what kind of paid job is a PhD graduate going to find that enables them at the same time to access another workplace and library to do research (during opening hours, when journals and archives are available etc). In my experience, in the current job market, this simply does not exist.

A PhD in humanities or arts will not really have given the graduate a huge amount of work experience, except a bit in teaching - and we have established that coveted teaching opportunities within universities go to current students only; they have no actual teaching qualification to teach elsewhere. In reality (and speaking from what I've seen my friends/ colleagues have done), you're talking about call centre jobs, or Tesco. Jobs with hours that are either full-time (thus not allowing you to do all that research) or shift work (thus not allowing you that luxury of a roof over your head).

Thus, as has been pointed out, the only people that can actually afford this opportunity are those who are being bank-rolled by their parents, or, if they've left home and married, by their DH or DP but then we're assuming they've no children.

Basically, only the very entitled would be within shot of this.

Sounds like a frustrating situation to be in. Is there anything you can submit on your own?