"school snobbery"

[dinkybinky]

I think it?s hysterical that some people think that if you child doesn?t attend a Grammar school or selective independent then they?re not academic. The level of ?school snobbery? that goes on is quite bewildering sometimes.

Except, seeker, you know that there are people who think that grammar schools are a good idea. So it's not a question of having to believe they do. Disagreement is another matter.

I also think, really, that while you are of course entitled to an opinion on anything you wish to hold an opinion on, since you did not go to a comp and neither do you send either of your kids to a comp, you are perhaps less well placed to comment on comps than those of us who were educated at a comp and who have kids at comps. That having said it would serve all of us well to remember that just as grammar schools are very different in different parts of the country, so are comps. It's foolish to generalise or to assume that the system in place in one county (eg Kent) is replicated identically across the rest of England.

I agree that selective systems are different in different parts of the country. Which is one of the reasons I put in my caveat about super selectives.

However, if I understand correctly, it is the Kentish system that pro grammar school politicians are keen to extend- it is the one that most mirrors the pre comprehensive system.

And, with respect, I may not have direct personal experience of comprehensive schools, (although I do have a large extended family/friend network so I do know quite a lot about how they operate) but is do wonder how many of the people who persist in telling me how wrong I am on this matter have direct personal experience of the grammar/secondary modern system as it is now.

Well, Seeker, I agree, most of the opponents of comps on here and it would seem, in Westminster village, have no idea, less idea than you do, for sure. And I am not an opponent of comps anyway, I went to one, DS is at one. And I agree with you about the Kent system being a bit rubbish - although for different reasons, I think. :)

I do think you do need to be more nuanced - and at the same time more specific - when you make blanket statements about grammar schools, and the people who think they are a Good Idea (on here at any rate) though. I can't recall reading any posts on here in support of the Kent system. Most Kent residents seem to veer between hating it to sad resignation. I can't recall ever seeing an enthusiast for the way Kent does things (although I'm not sure that when we say Kent we all mean the same thing, because there are some places that are in geographical Kent but not Kent LEA - e.g. Bromley - and it's not quite the same there, is it?)

When we talk about Kent in relation to selective education, we mean Kent LEA. Bromley ceased to be in Kent nearly 50 years ago.

Actually, people who support grammar schools seem to support them in whatever form they come. I don't think there has ever been a grammar school fan on one of these threads who's said "Absolutely, seeker, the Kent system is rubbish, isn't it? Segregating children at the age of 10 is such a bad idea!" I tend to get "nonsense, they don't feel like failures- why should they?" "it's not a problem to divide them into university types and car mechanics and hairdressers at the age of 10". And, my personal "favourite" "The top 23% need to be educated separately because the other 77% will bully them because they are the dregs of society"

@Cecily but I think they do the Kent test there, right? And they have grammar schools. And the people who live there some of them say they are in London but some say Kent. Same goes for Bexley. And then there's Medway, isn't there.

It's never strightforward, particularly for people who don't live there! We get the same thing in Devon, because we have the geographical Devon, then the political and LEA concept of Devon which isn't the same ( Torbay and Plymouth are unitary authorities and their own LEAs).

I;ve said the Kent system is rubbish many many times. But not for the reasons you think it is. So you ignore what I say and then pretend I haven't said it.

I'm pretty sure other posters have said they think the Kent system is rubbish too. But I own't name the ones I'm thinking of because they can speak for themselves (if they see this thread which they easily might not)

The thing about people who rave about grammar schools is that they always assume their DC will get a place. If they are GS-orientated they don't seem to realise there is a chance that they might, shock horror, have to consider the fact that their child will end up at school with future car mechanics/hairdressers. Unless of course they have Plan B up their sleeve of independent schooling.

I think the truly comprehensive system (unlike wot we got in Kent) is a much better option, and with enough will and funding could be done properly - as it is in some parts of the country.

I am not completely convinced by Comprehensives in practice having been to one that wasn't all that good. Perhaps one of the problems was the school was actually too small to allow sufficient differentiation added to the problem of low level disruption.

Some lessons were a complete and utter waste of time for the more academic pupils in the class like me. My brother is not academic but has extremely good technical skills - he can think his way around a printed circuit board whilst I am still looking up the name of the components. The Comprehensive failled him too he came out with a string of not very impressive academic qualifications whereas he would have aced something more techinally focussed i.e. where the academic content was tied into the practical applications more clearly rather than theoretical academic learning.

The other issue is that some Comprehensives don't perform well enough. We have two academies within 5-8 mins walk of each other door to door and would have a similar intake one gets 69% of pupils through 5 gcse's a-c the other gets 46%.

Sorry, mordion- I haven't ignored you, and I know you aren't completely enamoured of the Kent system. But I don't think I know why-I must have missed your reasons.

Actually, people who support grammar schools seem to support them in whatever form they come.

This isn't true Seeker. You and I have met on these threads before and I have agreed that I would feel more uncomfortable with the situation as it is in Kent if I lived there. It is partly thanks to you that I understand the Kent system at all, having only really started to learn about all these things when my own children became old enough to be affected by it.

I am a huge supporter of our local super selectives because I know that my own child would not have thrived at our local comprehensive, which I also think is a brilliant school. I worry that the backlash from so many people arguing against 'the grammar system' will eventually cause all grammar schools to cease to exist, even those that don't contribute to the problems that you speak of. And if that were to happen, it would be a real loss, and the people that wouldv be hurt by it are children.

No, they do not do the Kent test in Bromley, Medway, Bexley and Bromley are separate Local Authorities and have their own assessment process and timetable for selective secondary. I'm not sure if you live in one of those and want to go to a Kent CC grammar, you have to take the the kent test as well.

I don't know if the Kent system is so much rubbish, as simply the selective system as it was over 40 years ago, preserved for posterity. It is the system that a lot of pro-selection people seem to hark back to.

The thing about people who rave about grammar schools is that they always assume their DC will get a place.

This is not true.

Some people rave about them because they can see the benefits that grammar schools have already had on their children, and some people rave about them because they are happy with the schooling that their own children receive and can see that there are benefits for some children to be in a grammar school.

You could just as easily turn that around and say that the only people who complain about grammar schools are the people whose children don't stand a chance of getting into one, but that would also be inaccurate.

If they are GS-orientated they don't seem to realise there is a chance that they might, shock horror, have to consider the fact that their child will end up at school with future car mechanics/hairdressers.

Again, not true. I support grammar schools and have not even entered my youngest child for the 11+. Not because I think he has no chance of passing, because he is an intelligent child, but because his preference is towards subjects that are taught at the comp and are completely ignored at the GS. He has as much chance of leaving the comp with straight As as his brother does at the GS.

Seeker - I think the Kent system is rubbish because I think taking the top 25% is separating out far too many kids and, as you said, a bit arbitrary. I support super selectives. The top 2-5% do have different needs. And typically you would only have one or two of them in any given catchment area comp. Which just wouldn't make a viable group. I am really very pleased with the comp DS is at. It would have been a disaster for DD1 not just because her bullies from primary school all went there, and not just because of her SEN issues, but because they move - it seems to me - glacially slowly (and DS is in mainly top sets now, despite his dyslexia and despite his missing 12 weeks of school last term because of whooping cough. If DD1 had missed 12 weeks of school that would have been a real Thing.)

I think the sort of kids who go to superselectives deserve an appropriate education for them and I don't believe catchment area comps can deliver that.

Surely the partial grammar school system we have now is the worst of both worlds. It means that in those GS counties we haven't got away from the "clever/thick" prejudices of that the comprehensive system was meant to achieve. If no grammars existed, there would just be a state/private dimension which is purely one of privilege which is easy to understand. These private schools could perhaps increase their bursaries to provide more access to the truly bright. The point is that the comps would then be seen as normal rather than second/third rate. Of course many people already do see the comps as "normal" but, and this is the point, not those from a GS/PS background, they tend to see the comps as inferior because in some counties, on an academic basis, they are.

RT, I agree. How can any state say chidlren where I am from ceased to need grammars in 1970 and yet the genes of the children of Kent or Bucks are so different that those different Southern Children benefit from the grammar system? IT is so haphazard.

We should probably abolish all church state schools - they can form their own outside of the state system and secondly either have grammars and technical schools all over the UK or just comprehensives.

100 leading private schools recently offered to take any child from the state system who passed the exam if the state paid half the cost. That has not been taken on board.

The thread is about snobbery so the first question is what is snobbery. If someone has a different accent from you that does not mean they are a snob or working class or whatever. Snob is a derogatory term for certain people who look down on others. Most of us whatever our accent think all people are of equal value and I hope I treat everyone as well as each other. Indeed a good test is to look at how people treat those people who have no consequence to them at all or who cannot benefit them in any way. I would hope most of our good schools in both state and private sector aim to teach that too.

Xenia, abolish all religious schools full stop. There is nothing that will breed more future resentment than segregating children by religion, and indoctrinating them that they (and their religion) are different from other children.

Oh, Xenia. Why do I rise?

You hope you treat everyone as well as each other- but you used the word "dregs" to describe children like my ds.

I can't believe how un self-aware you are- you are so rude to so many people!

I thought I said we should treat everyone well and I think I do. I don't quite know which bit of my posts you are selective quoting. I certainly did refer to some state schools (and by no means all) as sink school with dregs of society within them and plenty of state school parents run from such schools and seek state schools in leafy suburbs with fewer children with problems. That does not mean one wouldn't not seek to help children with problems.

Except 'housewives' of course, Xenia - I take it they are fair game?

Seeker, I'm coming to think that Xenia is a fictitious character invented by my evil twin specifically to push my buttons. I think she knows and enjoys this.

There's a programme you can use for marking essays on screen, which our department decided we didn't like in the end, in which you have a 'bank' of frequently used expressions with which to annotate the essay. ('Awkward sentence'; 'comma splice'; 'you need to back this up with a critical quotation' etc).

I think the XeniaBot has one of those. 'Pick a better job'; 'fun'; 'Habs and NLCS'; 'It behooves women to pick a high earning job'; 'wiping bottoms'; 'dregs of society'; 'saying 'haitch'.

Zenia,The thread is about snobbery so the first question is what is snobbery

You tell me. I?ve only been reading MN for 3 months yet I know that you have at least 2 girls, one at NLCS and one that used to go to habs who (to use your own words) could have got into Oxford but didn?t bother applying . She now works in the City. You have written more books than any other MN member (do you know them all) you pay your own school fees and earn over 100k. You really can?t see that this thread was actually about you, can you?

what is snobbery?

Looking down your nose at people at state schools.
Assuming state schools are full of people who say 'haitch', and using the saying of 'haitch' as an index of how fundamentally worthwhile someone is.
Referring to people as 'lower orders' and 'dregs'.

For starters....

I say haitch.

In fact it is my NN among certain friends in RL as my name starts with it. AND I have a degree though did go to a comp