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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to find this toy disturbing?

276 replies

Booboostoo · 03/11/2012 17:05

DM bought DD (17 months) a happyland fun fair set which was such good fun I was looking through their other toys online for Christmas inspiration when I found this

www.elc.co.uk/HappyLand-Khaleeji-Family/134473,default,pd.html

I really liked the fact that the fun fair set came with little people from all races, but I find this toy disturbing. Aside from the burkas, what's with the men sitting on thrones and the women tending donkeys?

DP is trying to rile me over it, so I have come to MN jury for some sanity.

OP posts:
Booboostoo · 04/11/2012 16:23

desertgirl that is interesting to hear. What sort of age girls do you see in an abayas? And do you see girls and women swapping between the abayas and other types of clothing that are more revealing on a daily basis? If you do, that it does indeed that this is simply a styling choice and not part of the awrah and its religious obligations.

OP posts:
vladthedisorganised · 04/11/2012 16:51

This is not going to be a helpful post, but I now have a flattened head from banging it repeatedly on the table.
There are lots of disturbing toys. Dolls, mainly. I would class everything in this department as inherently disturbing (the eyes! the eyes!).
As for the Happyland house, if DD was given one, I'd be perfectly OK with it - it just shows people in a specific national dress. Very few toys of that ilk can be completely representational (I don't see any serfs in the Sherwood Castle, for instance. And the knight - it's probably a crusader which is deeply suspect politically, and he's carrying a weapon which is no example for my child to follow), and the point is that children will see it as a nice house with a tree, some horses, some cakes and various people to move around. Which beats a crapping dog into a cocked hat.

Growlithe · 04/11/2012 17:03

This thread is not really about the toy though is it?

Booboostoo · 04/11/2012 17:08

vlad I am sorry but I am also lost. I never said toys should be representational, I said the complete opposite, i.e. that many real life situations should not be represented because they are reprehensible. I would be disturbed to see a toy showing black people as slaves in a plantation full of happy, smiling white people even though this is a historically acurate fact.

I think you mean that you find the dolls disturbing in that they are creepy, I find the toy disturbing in that it is morally inappropriate. I don't find it creepy, just inappropriate as a role model for women.

OP posts:
Booboostoo · 04/11/2012 17:08

Growlithe would you care to expand?

OP posts:
pinkoyster · 04/11/2012 17:18

But boo, why on earth do you think the toy is 'morally inappropriate'?!

It is literally a man and woman, and their children dressed CULTURALLY for the Khaleej (which means Gulf in Arabic), and various props-chairs, cattle, a house etc.

Why do you assume from the woman's attire she is oppressed? She is dressed for the region she comes from.

(I can't believe I'm still reading and commenting on this thread. It made me literally LOL yesterday when I first came across it)...

Booboostoo · 04/11/2012 17:59

pinkoyster I have tried to explain why but let me try again.

Primarily, because the women happen to be wearing their country's national dress but wearing a requirement of their religion which is associated with various anti-feminist views of women. For example, in some interpretations of the religious requirement for modest dress women have to be covered head to toe because otherwise their naked flesh offends and excites men. This package of beliefs is not appropriate as a role model for a toy. I don't think children should be encouraged to see women as people who must be covered head to toe, anymore than they should see women as people who must look after children and not work, or be pink princesses, or be nurturing nurses and not authoritative doctors.

Secondarily, even as a cultural depiction it's patronising and stereotypical. The whole toy is lazily designed, the house is inappropriate for the type of architecture typical of the region it is supposed to represent, the thrones (they are thrones in another toy in the series from where they appear to be lifted as other posters mentioned) are caricatures of Arabic aesthetics, and the donkeys are odd (nothing will persuade me that these short, stumpy, long eared beasts are Arab horses).

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 04/11/2012 18:08

Booboo, what makes this toy "morally inappropriate"?Confused

JamieandtheMagicTorch · 04/11/2012 18:11

Oh i agree the toy is lazy, in that it uses pieces from other sets. It's the Elc, they have been a bit crap for a looong time. Possibly their market research suggested little children like cottages, and ponies. If they could have, they would probably get a rainbow in there somewhere.

Firawla · 04/11/2012 18:13

growlithe i thought that too. not really about the toy, just an excuse to have a rant about muslims/islam and how morally inappropriate and women hating we apparently are!

I don't see anything disturbing about the toy, it is cute. I want it for my kids but waiting till it goes on sale cos its too expensive. Atleast with elc you know its well made whereas some of the toys you can get from islamic shops tend to be more cheaper made and fall apart so I was happy when I saw this cos it would be good to have figures dressing like we do.
All this about the women are tending to the donkeys men are sat on thrones etc is majorly over thinking the situation!

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/11/2012 18:13

Cross post Booboo. Thanks for answering. I get it now.

You find the toy morally inappropriate" because you find Muslim women who don't dress like you morally inappropriate*.

JamieandtheMagicTorch · 04/11/2012 18:15

Ferzackerly

AnnaKissed · 04/11/2012 18:27

I am living in the Middle East and there are loads of ELC shops here, I think the Khaleeji family has been produced for this market, not the UK market, they certainly advertise it enough here! The woman are wearing abayas not burkas, as do all Arab woman here (willingly). All men and lots of boys dress like the men in this set, so why shouldn't Arab children have toys to play which look like their parents/family? Seriously, everyone dresses like that here. I think it's great, although I agree that the house and animals are incongruous.

JuliaScurr · 04/11/2012 18:28

Am I right in concluding that discussion of racism in toys is reasonable but discusson of sexism is political correctness gone mad?

AnnaKissed · 04/11/2012 18:31

To answer the questions you put to desert girl, no they don't swap between clothes, they wear abayas and thobes/dishdashas all the time in public. The same way you wear trousers and a coat for example. It's an cultural norm. Yes, it has a religious base, but don't most of our traditions?

pinkoyster · 04/11/2012 19:51

Honestly , I give up...

This package of beliefs is not appropriate as a role model for a toy

Who says toys should be 'role models' ffs?

They're cheap bits of plastic (sold at extortionate prices) that children occupy their time with. The more diverse toys they have, the more their imagination can be stretched rather than seeing just white, anglo-saxon figurines with blonde hair and blue frolicking in English meadows. Maybe you can buy the Khaleeji's for your DD, and explain how you don't want her to become like them, covered in head to toe and looked down upon.

Your second point is more valid, that it is lazily designed by the ELC, but again, in the grand scheme of things, it matters not a jot. My 20 month old DS wouldn't give a shiny shit if it looked like a throne or a chair. He'd probably sit the donkey in it.

pinkoyster · 04/11/2012 19:52

*eyes

MadBanners · 04/11/2012 20:07

My daughter has the pink castle from this, never has the queen or king in it etc, it seems to be used as a fancy stable for random animals!

Although I probably should be shot for buying her something pink (instead of gender neutral or blue, since pink is the basis of all evil) and it being a Castle....delusions of grandeur or something. The point is, it is a toy, and will more than likely be used for 100 different things over the course of its play lifetime.

desertgirl · 04/11/2012 20:10

Booboo, I don't know what age - as an example there is a girl who lives in our compound who is about 10 who appears in an abaya occasionally (usually acting very pleased with herself but that is slightly beside the point). Probably not as young as you see boys in dishdashas; but that doesn't seem to trouble you (even though it covers up just as much).

I said in one of my earlier posts, I think there is pressure to wear national dress (on both genders) but it is tied up with national pride as much as with religion. This is not Afghanistan. Or Morocco. It isn't even KSA. Nobody is going to stone you for not wearing an abaya. One of the wives of the Ruler of Dubai/Prime Minister of the UAE, doesn't wear the abaya - she is a Jordanian princess and chooses to wear western clothes.

If you are 'covering' for reasons of modesty you are not really supposed to bling up your clothes, carry designer handbags and wear full (and immaculate) make up, are you? I have an Emirati colleague who admitted that her parents asked her and her sisters to wear the abaya because the neighbours were gossiping. She doesn't particularly bling hers up; and she walks around the office with it open sometimes, with her hair loose and uncovered (and it is a mixed office) - whereas another Emirati I know panicked when a window cleaner appeared outside the pilates class, and grabbed her abaya, as she was uncomfortable with an unknown man seeing her in fairly skimpy (pilates/yoga style) clothes. Not because anyone was going to hassle her because of it; nobody would know, but because she didn't like it - her reaction was very much what mine was when a window cleaner appeared outside the window of the bit of the office (back of a file store!) where I was breastpumping! the windows in both cases are actually pretty much impossible to see through from the outside, but it's hard to convince yourself of that when there's someone right on the other side of them.

The abaya is also a bit of a statement. This is an intensely hierarchical society (not a good thing) and Emiratis are at the top of the tree, followed by some expat Arabs (mostly other Gulf nationals), then Western expats, then other expat Arabs, then expats from other places. There is a bit of an assumption therefore that someone wearing the local dress is not to be messed with; I am convinced that some of the non-locals who wear abayas (or dishdashas) do so for that reason. So in general its perception here is pretty different from its perception in the UK.

And there are feminist issues here, of course there are. One of the current initiatives (sorry not sure if it's just a proposal or has come into effect) is to allow Emirati mothers to give their children their citizenship - previously, this could only transfer through the father, so Emirati women married to eg Palestinian men could end up with effectively stateless children, particularly if the man buggered off and didn't help on the passport front. And they are still a minority in senior positions (not sure where that isn't the case). But this really isn't one of the things they are oppressed by, not unless you consider their husbands and brothers oppressed by the same expectations with regard to their own national dress.

Anyway, I had to go to the mall earlier, so I went in to ELC to look for this house. It was there, with a table and little brown chairs outside, and the dad and the mum were having cakes together :)

(incidentally it is really really odd hearing people say the white figures would be dad and mum.... like hearing someone insist that the pink-clad baby is a boy! have been here too long!)

desertgirl · 04/11/2012 20:12

they do have donkeys here, by the way. Not as many as goats though. they should really have included mangy goats and camels, shouldn't they?

Fakebook · 04/11/2012 20:19

I have a happy land bakery toy set for dd. The baker is a black boy and the shop owner is a white woman and there is an old granny (presumably the customer). That's racist isn't it? The black boy is made to slave away making the buns and cakes whilst the two white women order him about.

Hmm
pinkoyster · 04/11/2012 20:33

Yes fakebook it is. How utterly DEPLORABLE. How dare they depict the baker as black..?...

Just as well the OP hasn't seen it..

Booboostoo · 04/11/2012 22:02

desertgirl it's really heartening to hear the mode of dress is also related to more premissive and free lifestyles for women, thanks for taking the time to write that lengthy explanation.

OP posts:
flow4 · 05/11/2012 00:12

That's a really interesting post, desertgirl. Thanks Thanks from me too :)

nailak · 05/11/2012 00:19

i have got to go to sleep now, but I think that toy is amazing, I will be buying it!

I am not oppressed and have had the same educational opportunities as the rest of you lol, and I dont think hijab is anti feminist, I think dictating to women what they should or should not choose to wear is anti feminist.

and tbh OP you sound like a very ignorant bigot.

and also it is quite possible to cover in abayah and live in rost cottage, there are people like my self living in terraced houses in uk who dress like those dolls lol