What's wrong with reward charts?

[crackcrackcrak]

There is a discussion page on Facebook (which it's high time I left I know) which is v pro attachment parenting etc. I don't always agree with everything but tonight they are bashing reward charts/stickers.
Tbf dd1 is only 3 so I haven't used them yet but I planned to and thought they were common thing to use for potty training or whatever.
Am I missing something? Are they a perceived evil after all?

Raw I don't find it comes naturally, in fact it goes against the way I was brought up so I feel as though I'm continually practising. But I do notice the children self-appraise, my little boy came in to tell me, "Mummy I made my bed and I feel proud of myself." topped up with "Mummy you made your bed, you must be proud of yourself, too!"

What BertieBotts said further up thread.

Think of it like this. You love your job. You find it fullfilling, fun, interesting etc. But your workload is huge and so your boss says that in recognition of the good job you are doing she will pay you for the 2 hours of overtime you work every day. You are delighted because up to now you've been doing it for free, just because you love your job so much. For 6 months you get your over-time. Then one day your boss says that unfortunately the company doesn't have enough money to pay your overtime that month. You'll only get 50%. You're not happy, but soldier on. However, the next month, your boss says that the company won't be paying overtime any more, but you still need to spend 2 hours a day over an above your hours to do your job properly. How do you feel? Pissed off? Fuck 'em, I'm not working for free?

And that's the problem with reward charts. Kids get focused on the reward instead of on the activity you want them to do. They can work fantastically while the system is in place, but giving rewards reduces internal motivation and once the rewards are removed, the activity you initially wanted to promote occurs less frequently. There has been loads and loads of research on this and this result happens across all cultures and all age groups.

If you want to use reward charts, you also need to actively think about how actively increase your child's internal motivation to do the thing you want them to do. And there are lots of ways of doing that that are more effective than a star chart.

neolara I see what you mean.

COnversely giving people tangible achievable tangible realistic short term objectives (known as SMART objectives where I used to work) can also motivate them and help them achieve in the long term.

I think it will probably depend on the toddler/person's character tbh.

Nothing wrong with targets. It's giving them tangible rewards for the targets that's the problem. Internal motivation is usually increased by making a person feel more in control or more competent. A target can be used to do both.

I totally get the praise context - actually I try really hard with this with dd - choosing how I phrase it etc but its still praise! Isn't it?

Neo - bit do they? Always?

Crack - yes, pretty much always.

I think reward charts are more of a short term behaviour moulding tool. The fading of such rewards is an essential part of the process. You are providing a visual (very important with certain children) encouragement which gives them a tangible understanding of what a good thing they are doing. It is only to set them up in the beginning stages of something they are finding difficult to achieve by other methods such as verbal encouragement. It is not necessary for all children or indeed for all situations and its overuse is probably what gives fuel to the arguments against it.
It is a very useful tool in a tricky situation and not something which means any of the advice given by other posters on how to speak to your child is not excellent and sensible. As usual, every child is different and an arsenal of weapons tools in the enduring battle to be the best parent you can is IMO the way to go.
Look, I have no vested interest in this I have never had to use a reward chart with my perfect first born dd, her sister I suspect is a different kettle of stubborn fish. I have used them professionally and very successfully with many children at work. That's different to using them with your own child.
The main thing is that if you do use them the frequency of reward is reduced gradually but quickly and then replaced with praise and eventually just positive notice. The hope is that the behaviour remains along with a positive feeling connected with that behaviour. No dependency issues on being praised for breathing will remain!!!!!!

I agree Lucy

[hgrin] at raw shark planning for exam results.

ARe tangible rewards always a problem ? Does that mean people who are motivated by money weren't praised as per context set out above (leaving aside childhood poverty)? I'm just trying to follow the logic to the very end [hgrin]. Do al lchildren praised in such a way not set store by money or possessions? Is there a study on that?

Id probably be a better DW If I had one.

I like stickers.

Oops I think Lucy has sort of answered the non-facetious part o fmy post (x-post!)

Pointless for my son. They turn into a bargaining tool. In fact my son turns everything into an opportunity.

'brush your teeth'

'can I play my ds after'

'no'

'then I'm not doing it'

'well your not getting your time on your ds after school' (agreed 15 mins after homework)

'fine then'

I also don't really like reward charts for the reasons mentioned above, plus as other posters have said, they are very high maintenance. Sometimes I do find myself promising things for certain behaviour out of desperation though, but I know I shouldn't.

I also dislike paying children money for things they should be doing anyway, like tidying their room. I know several people who do this.

I was thinking about this last night, and you could do a sticker chart merely to keep count for potty training. Letting the child choose the sticker would be fun (if they like stickers) and it would be a tangible sign of their achievement. WOuld that get rid of "Reward" chart negatives?

Dunno, you'd have to consult Alfie Kohn on praise I don't understand it.

I don't tend to do the nondescript praise (good boy, well done, good job etc) but try to be specific, so more "That's right" if DS pointed out a letter or something correctly, or just repeating it back/reinforcing "Yes, that says mmmmm, like in Mummy" or I'm descriptive like "Thank you for calming down and asking me nicely." or whatever. But I think Kohn says that you shouldn't do praise which is about you (I liked the way.../I'm really proud of... etc) but I feel like I'm just being true to myself and getting across what I do value, when I say thank you for something he's done which I appreciate.

I also think that modelling is the most important thing so in my head the saying thank you thing makes the most sense!

I've also found what MrsKeith mentions - that using rewards for things leads to DS angling for rewards after everything which becomes wearing and then he gets into a strop if I say no.

It's difficult when you have a tricky situation though.

For eg, am having a terrible time potty training my DD for poos, nothing has worked. I physically can't insist and make her, she doesn't understand it's for her own good (what 3yo does). Solely praising effort has had the worst effect. Stickers for clean pants has been fairly effective. I suppose that's a combination of specific praise and reward charts.

I don't think it's wise to rule any technique out totally, there might be a point where it's worth a try.

This is a really interesting thread. Totally agree that praise should be descriptive and reward effort rather than acheivement.

Can anyone elaborate on ways to increase internal motivation without using external praise?

sawdust nicely articulated

I totally get the view that rewarding children for actions they should be doing anyway .. whether for their own benefit or to help others .. can be counter-productive in the long run. Earlier, I couldn't quite put into words why I'd been reluctant to use reward charts with my own DC but some of the above posters have clarified my feelings for me.

It can get ridiculous if parents over-reward so that everything becomes a transaction. We were out for a walk last summer with DH's friend and his family, their DC aged 13 and 10. It was boiling hot and the 13-yr-old was insisting on wearing a new pink fleece she really liked. Her mum wanted her to take it off and not overheat. She didn't want to and demanded to be paid £1 if she removed it which her mum promised to pay later. Must admit I was at this approach to parenting. Wrong on so many levels IMO

Sawdust - Internal motivation is increased by increasing feelings of control and increasing feelings of competence. So, for example, if you want your child to practise the piano you can increase their feelings of control by

1. getting them to set their own goals instead of you telling them what they need to achieve e.g. "What piece would you like to work on today?" Instead of "You need to practise the Mozart now"
2. giving them choices where appropriate e.g. "Do you want to practise before watching TV or after watching TV?" instead of "You need to practise the piano now"
3. getting them to self-evaluate how they did instead of you judging them. e.g. "Your teacher said you needed to think about keeping exactly to the rhythm on this piece. How well do you think you did that?" Instead of "That was good"

You can increase your kids feeling of competence by

1. Giving feedback that explicitly says what they did well e.g. "You kept to the rhythm all the way through that piece."
2. Show how they have improved over time e.g. "You've can now play 2 scales all the way through without making any mistakes. Last week you could only do 1."
3. Keep visual records so kids can see how they improve over time

You can also keep talking about the underlying value. E.g. Tidying up is boring in itself, but it's nice to live in a tidy house. So explicitly talk about the benefit.

And there I was thinking that I would just ensure that DS is always surrounded by lots of positivity and praise for his efforts and just praise in whatever way comes naturally, and hope that he turns out ok!

He is only 14 months at the moment so cant understand anyway, so we just do lots of cheering and smiling and clapping when he does things. But I can see myself in a couple of years time going:

'Oh Ds, I love your drawing............hang on a minute, no I dont love it... wait a second.... you have drawn a picture of a dog, it is fanstastic, why have you coloured it in green...', in an increasingly robotic voice! Oh god, I am dreading the whole parenting thing!

I do agree though that reward charts should be used sparingly, and I hate the whole idea of giving monetary rewards for things like exam results (a lot of my friends parents adopted this approach, but much to my disappointment, my mum refused!)

highland I have seen similar. A friend, a very nice woman, pays her daughter for each page of her book she reads, for each gym session she attends and more by negotiation.

Another friend, also very nice, who has 3 beautifully behaved little girls, says she pays the children to do things like homework and help around the house.

I'm so glad no one ever suggested this tactic to me, way too expensive and I imagine the children will grow up expecting to be paid for every time they behave as expected.

How I've heard the praise thing described is in the context of supporting the development of healthy self-esteem. In that context, you are encouraged to avoid placing a value judgement on the behaviour, and rather to describe the behaviour you have observed/noticed.

The theory is that children are perfectly capable of working out for themselves when something is good or bad, and you are supporting them to learn that for themselves. A bit like you can't really teach a child to walk or talk, you can support them and point out things they might like to try, but they will get it by themselves when they're ready.

So if a child has put all the books back neatly on a bookshelf, you might say something like "I can see that you've put all the books on the shelf so that it will be easy for people to find the one that they want."

As someone who has struggled with self-esteem, I am interested in how you support a child to develop healthy self-esteem .