AIBU. The richest 1,000 people see their wealth increase by £155bn

[GetAllTheThings]

Since the banking crisis the richest 1,000 people in Britain have seen their wealth increase by £155bn.

1000 people. £155 billion pounds.

That's enough to pay off the whole government deficit of £119bn in one go.

I fail to see how 'we are all in this together'.

How is this right in a civilized society when millions of children live in poverty ? Surely money is like water, and it's all flowed into the hands of a select few.

Guardian and Guardian again

If the money is being earned while all their employees are earning a fair wage for what they do for the company, I haven't got a problem with it at all.

But as many of the employees that have helped to earn that money are probably claiming tax credits and receiving other benefits, then it's wrong.

And I don't think that a combined increase of just under 5% is that staggering actually, given the financial advice at their disposal - you can bet on markets falling as well as rising, and some on that list have directly benefited from austerity (Home Bargains, B&M etc are all budget retailers).

Do none of the companies Philip Green is involved in employ people in Britain? Really? I have a problem with him if he is illegally avoiding tax. Although I doubt he is. Tax evasion is not illegal. Should we be so inclined we can all take advantage of the same loopholes he does. They are not just there for him to use. And I have absolutely no doubt he spends a considerable amount of his fortune in Britain.

Tax evasion is definitely illegal, it's tax avoidance that isn't.

Philip Green hasn't done anything illegal - he registered Arcadia in the name of his wife Tina and when she picked up a hefty dividend in 2005 (I think) she didn't have to pay UK tax on it because she was a resident of Monaco.

However, this behaviour could be seen as immoral and hypocritical, particularly as he was advising the government on public service efficiency at the time.

On balance I think that most of us would take steps to minimise our tax bill if there was a legal way of doing so, it's the loopholes that need to be closed.

It is capitalism, that is how it works. But also if you read this book http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0300188374/ref=mp_s_a_1?pi=SL75&qid=1351691721&sr=8-1 it may explain why humans are hell bent on ruining the planet and stupid with greed.

Sorry www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0300188374/ref=mp_s_a_1?pi=SL75&qid=1351691721&sr=8-1

For me, it's the gap between rich and poor which is disgusting.

I'm always a bit when people say they couldn't possible increase salaries of the lower paid while the top of the organisation get fat bonuses and pensions etc etc. if they reduced their increases by a small amount that could help the lower tiers in an organisation.

As for those who think the wealthy create growth and jobs for everyone else, please point me as to where, especially in these times of recession. I'm not sure why a billionaire should be allowed to dodge taxes whereas the rest of us have to pay.

You are right adeucalione apologies I meant tax avoidance. I don't think minimising you tax bill is immoral to be honest but that's just my opinion.

Do none of the companies Philip Green is involved in employ people in Britain? Really?

Nobody said that. But Arcadia has been criticised over pay and conditions of overseas and UK workers by anti-sweatshop groups such as Labour Behind the Label, No Sweat and the student activist network People & Planet.

He was accused by Channel 4's Dispatches programme of still using sweatshops ? in Britain.

The fact his wife owns Arcadia avoids £285 million in tax that would be payable if a UK resident owned the company.

All legal of course.

Iggly I started work last month in the company of a wealthy man. I work three days a week in a job that didn't exist before. I was a SAHM for the last 6 years. I get paid fairly with good terms and conditions.
My DH also works in the company of a wealthy individual. He was laid off in 2009 from a large multi national. He is also compensated well and receives. Bonus. Our family is completely dependent on jobs created by wealthy individuals in times of recession.

DixieD I would love to think that is going on all over the country.

But with huge companies like BT and HSBC (just two examples off the top of my head) sacking off employees AND paying their bosses large bonuses I think your company is the exception rather than the rule. Although I would love to be proved wrong.

DH & I are averagely well off. Don't need to worry about money but not loaded by any stretch of the imagination and I feel bad that I have so much when so many people in this country are worrying about paying for the basics. I don't know how the wealthy sleep at night, paying NMW and not paying the tax they should.

But with huge companies like BT and HSBC (just two examples off the top of my head) sacking off employees AND paying their bosses large bonuses

Add to that tax avoidance.

IKWYM Hammy.

Yep, good to know these behemoths are all pitching in, like the rest of us are expected to.

I don't get the argument that 'most of us would take similar measures if we could'. Really? That is really sad. I would hope that if I was mega rich I would take a leaf out of JK Rowling's book and see paying tax as a responsibility we all share, whether rich or poor.

That's great Dixie. I mean on a wider scale.

Politicians talk about a trickle down effect but has it ever happened? If it did, we'd not have had the mess of top up benefits.

The wealthy don't want workers earning more because it means less for them.

I am not here to defend Philip Green, he can well afford to defend himself. If he is not compliant with UK Labour laws then I have an issue with him. If he is evading tax then I have am issue with him. In my very first post I said that I had no issue with wealthy people making money once it is done legally and in a tax compliant manner.
What I do have an issue with is people assuming that it is wrong for wealthy people to make money when other people aren't. It isn't wrong, neither is it wrong to not pay tax you are not liable to. Mrs Green is not resident in the UK so of course she doesn't pay a UK resident tax. This is self evident. She is entitled to live wherever she likes and if her main consideration is that she will pay less tax she is entitled to do that to. I see nothing immoral in that.
Iggly you asked for examples I gave you one. You only have to look around at everyone employed in the private sector to see it happening on a wider scale.

DixieD I don't have a problem per se with people becoming wealthy.

But in an age / country where there are 3.5 million children living in poverty in the UK and there is a predicted a steep rise in the numbers in coming years, I find it extremely hard to reconcile that with the fact the super-rich are £155 billion pounds better off. especially when tax avoidance schemes for the super-rich seem common place.

The most vulnerable in our society are floundering whilst the wealthiest are getting richer. Much richer.

I think the idea that wealth trickles down is a total fallacy, it's the diametric opposite.

The Price of Offshore Revisited report says that the worlds super-rich are 'hiding' at least $21 TRILLION in secret tax havens. Enabled by an industrious bevy of professional enablers in private banking, legal, accounting and investment industries.

A Greek journalist has just been arrested for releasing the names of 2000 of the wealthiest Greeks who have secret Swiss bank accounts. The Greek government has had these names for several years and done sweet FA.

Does anyone know if Top Shop staff are even on a living wage or just the minimum?

OPWe are in absolute agreement that the illegal evasion of tax is abhorrent. That it should be stamped on heavily when discovered. That loopholes should be closed where possible. That there is a lack of political will to confront this is possible. Although ultimately politicians are answerable to the voters and if the demand is loud enough they will act.
But the wealthy that legally avoid tax are not doing anything wrong. The money you talk about in your OP is legally earned and taxed. Or at least I assume it is as assets in secret Swiss bank accounts are not usually on public record!

Don't mind the rich being rich. But it is immoral to be so rich unless they are paying all of their workers in their supply chain a living wage at the very minimum (living wage does not equal min wage). (And not be destroying the and etc)

Basically, is ok to be rich if what they do has a net positive effect.

Not be destroying the environment...

The money you talk about in your OP is legally earned and taxed. Or at least I assume it is as assets in secret Swiss bank accounts are not usually on public record!

Did you not read the post about Philip Green ? He paid himself a £1.2 BILLION bonus in 2005 and didn't pay any tax on it.

Ever heard of Bob Diamond or Barclay's tax avoidance department that served the super-rich ?

The first part of what you wrote upthread GetAllTheThings seems to me to be in contradiction to the latter part. Either you are happy with wealth accumulation or not.

Nobody was complaining a few years ago about the wealth gap. Perhaps because the vocal middle classes were getting a slice of the pie too. Now hard times come everyone wants to tax hard (the rich) and give hard (to the poor). No one was talking about child poverty a few years back - it was still there however. Talking about the wealth trickling down - that was a labour government idea...and I think they did bring child poverty down.

Basically, is ok to be rich if what they do has a net positive effect.

I'm struggling with this thread tbh. Why do the rich have to be morally responsible? As far as I'm concerned, as long as they work within the laws of the country they live/trade in, they are entitled whatever they earn.

Upthread someone also mentioned about being like JK Rowling. The poster may well be of this generous bent, but I think this is quite naive view of human nature in general. We (general 'we' here) like to accumulate i.e. get to keep what we reep. There is nothing instrinsically wrong in this. I don't see people who avoid paying taxes as morally corrupt individuals - they are acting in their own interests, like we (almost) all do.