To think Halloween is harmless?

[lavenderbongo]

So I am planning a halloween party for the kids and their parents. I intend to do all the usual games, wrap the mummy, apple bobbing, eating donuts off string. Just the normal kiddy stuff in an attempt to avoid annoying the nieghbours by doing trick or treating.
I was chatting to a colleague at work as she commented on my painted black nails and told her I was going to dress up as a witch and have a party for the kids. At this point she looked very cross and demanded "Do you know the origin on Bonfires?" I said isnt it to do with Guy Fawkes. Well no apprently it is from burning bones of little children and devil worship. Halloween is apparently a terrible festival that encourages devil worship and she would have never let her daughters dress up as little devils. (my youngest looks very cute in her little horns!)
So suitably chastised I looked up all this on the web. Bonfires were called bonefire but it was cattle bones not kids! Surely its about time we just thought of halloween as a time for a bit of fun and an opportunity to dress up? I think she is making a lot of fuss about nothing and buying into an old tradition based on superstition and beliefs that are no longer relevant. What do you think?

I think you are right there. Look at fairy tales as an example of reducing evil to proportions in which it can be understood and dealt with.

While people celebrating Hallowe'en in North America do get up to some mischief such as egging or toilet-papering houses, the extremely malicious 'tricks' such as referenced up thread as being imported American silliness is much more endemic to this side of the pond. I grew up in Canada and experienced Hallowe'en in all it's wonderful child-centred, pillowcase full of candy, snowsuit under your costume fun, and it we never heard of anything like the awful stories I hear over here of what some people get up to on Hallowe'en. And like has already been mentioned many times on this thread, Hallowe'en originated in Scotland and Ireland, was exported, and has now come back. And even if it was American in origin, that fact alone wouldn't make it silly! American bashers always appear on the Hallowe'en threads.... [hangry]

I'm with hiddenhome . Whilst I'm sure that all Halloween kids parties are just that - a party and some fun I do feel uncomfortable with anything that makes evil spirits, demons, devils etc appear fun. I also base my views on a relationship with God and not on doctrine, history, tradition etc. I also believe in the devil and that he truly is an evil being who wants to cause damage to people's lives. Therefore I would choose not to attend Halloween parties or to send my children to them as I think it starts to trivialise what is actually a sinister issue.

However people that do not mind Halloween - feel free to party away. I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun (and sugar overload!)

Halloween parties, pumpkins and loads of fireworks in gardens and displays, Yes please!
Little children trick or treating round each others houses ok.

Yobs using trick or treat and fireworks as an excuse for antisocial behaviour should spend a night in the local police cells.

Frightening elderly people, risking getting private fireworks banned and stopping younger children feeling safe is unforgivable.

Life is dull enough without idiots, spoiling fun occasions.

A good few years ago we took the view that although Halloween might be a quaint American autumn tradition, it's one we'd rather not participate in.

Our elder two DCs weren't at all bothered, our youngest was totaly indignant that we were denying her a route into free confectionery [hgrin]

YANBU - your colleague is 1) completely incorrect 2) a bit weird.

Celebrating Halloween isn't exactly new. I attended Halloween parties when I was in primary school,am 24 now. It's just a bit of fun. Christians can not like it as much as they like,as is their right,but I wish they would be quieter about it. Muslims don't celebrate Halloween and don't say anything about it (I live in a very multicultural area).

I do agree with what's been said about trick or treating though. Groups of supervised children are sweet,groups of burly obnoxious shit heads teenagers frightening old people are categorically not.

Both sets of grandparents have had their houses egged by such groups.

CrazyCanuck: I've been a bit stunned by the descriptions of outrageous behavior in Halloween threads. I live in the US, and I've never seen anything like the crazy crap people describe, even back when I used to live in an area infested with violent gangs. On this side of the pond, trick or treating is mostly for the younger kids, the older ones generally head off to Halloween parties rather than prowl around setting wheelie bins on fire, FFS.

Omnishamble, do you feel any differently about it now you know it's not an American tradition, bit a British Isles one?

Hmm some interesting thoughts. I do believe that to make something less scary you bring it to the forefront and reduce it to an everday or festive tradition. So dressing up as a ghost, monster, devil makes them less scary. And as they dont exist it should take the scaryness away for the little kids.
Very interesting that people believe in Evil. I don't. I believe people are capable of doing evil things, which they accomplish on their own without any need for outside interference!
But evil forces. No they don't exist. However if people can explain why they believe otherwise that wuld be very interesting. I hope I have an open mind.

Completely agree lavender. 'Evil' as an entity doesn't exist - certainly, people are capable of acting in an evil manner, and of carrying out thoroughly evil acts, but evil forces [hhmm] - bunkum I'm afraid. And I doubt anything anyone could say would change my mind (and I am open minded).

Strange how none of the Christians seem to be bothered by Walpurgis night.

OK genuine question for Christians. Why did God create the devil?

What is walpurgis night?

I don't do Hallowe'en. I don't make a big song and dance about not celebrating it, it just doesn't sit with my beliefs well. I equally wouldn't celebrate Eid or Divali - they are not part of my belief system.

Just because the majority of people celebrate hallowe'en doesn't mean everyone has to. Each to their own.

We tend to go out to whatever the local church is doing so that we aren't plagued by kids knocking on the door all evening.

As a pagan I believe the true meaning of Halloween is about teenagers terrorizing old people whom they don't know, demanding money from them and threatening to burn their houses down. In the old Druidic tradition this is done in only a 99p shop mask or sometimes not bothering with a costume at all.

I feel a little bit dubious about mainly Christians hijacking my sacred holiday to send out small children (who we used to eat on Halloween in the old days) dressed in 'cute' outfits to ask people they already know for sweets.

[hshock]

Sassh I'm not an expert theologian or anything but my understanding is that the devil is a fallen angel - ie He was one of the great Angels on a par with Gabriel et al and basically decided that he wanted more power than God. The reason that God allowed it (after all he is all-powerful and could have just nuked him into nothingness) is that God does not want him (or us) being forced into loving him. There has to be an alternative that we have a right to choose. Otherwise we would all be robots following God as there is no other option and so that would not be a real relationship based on love and trust, which is what 'real' Christians (not those who go to church faithfully every Sunday, spout litergy and religious clap trap and like to look down their noses at everyone else because they are so good and holy but have no personal relationship with God on any other day of the week) do experience the moment they choose to become a Christian.

Sure someone else can explain it better ...

lalagabby - I'm not even a supporter of Halloween but I'm [hshock] at the childen- eating. I thought Druids were all to do with peace and the cycle of nature etc?????

LOL @LaLaGabby. Tongue in cheek humour at its best [hgrin]

To the OP, I think your collegue it a bit deluded. These days most people who go to any Hallowe'en parties or go trick or treating have absolutely no religious or non-religious reason for doing so. The whole thing is just seen as having a bit of fun these days. Have a great night at your party! I'm sure you will have a blast!!!!

I'm Pagan and couldn't exactly care less with what other people think about one of my festivals. What I do in my private time is my business. Could rant on about Xty "stealing holidays" but that wouldn't do any good. It's an old rhyme which has grown stale IMO. It's not like we'll ever "get them back". [hsmile]

Irrespective of any theological discussions, here is why I hate Halloween.

Our bus service is WITHDRAWN completely on Halloween - our suburb is completely cut off, because the charming local young folk make it too dangerous for the bus drivers. Houses regularly get egged and vandalised. I've previously had all my window boxes, lovingly planted with winter bedding and bulbs, overturned and ripped out. Random fireworks going off which petrify our dogs. I used to work in the street cleansing department - staff out on Halloween would get attacked, mobbed, egged and their vehicles vandalised.

So stuff the arguments about Pagans and woo. For me, it's all about a horrible night when public transport is disrupted, public servants are intimidated and people living quietly in their own homes are hassled, vandalised and pestered. We even put up a poster in the door every year politely asking for no trick or treaters - it usually gets ripped down, they still knock and we get still get vandals.

What's not to like?

I imagine the reason person think evil "forces" exist is because humans have been so very successful in personifying them. If you start from the premise that bad stuff happens in the world and it's useful to be able to recognise/prevent/fight bad stuff then, if you have abstract communication like we have, sooner or later you'll give all the bad stuff a handy label, "evil", which I imagine there is an equivalent of in most languages. You also give other handy conceptual labels to other stuff, like "truth" and "love".

Then you get religion in its various guises, and religion actually personifies the "evil" into a humanesque figure (Christian devil being one) for easy reference; it sort of helps you think of it as a thing apart which you don't have to choose/follow. So from there I guess it's a short leap to believing that "evil" is a conscious thing with intentions and motivations, just like a person. The usefulness of the personification has sort of backfired.

Scuttlebutter, I would hate Halloween too in that situation:(

Yes I'm at some people's experiences here!

Very interesting that people believe in Evil. I don't. I believe people are capable of doing evil things, which they accomplish on their own without any need for outside interference! But evil forces. No they don't exist. However if people can explain why they believe otherwise that would be very interesting. I hope I have an open mind.

The point about evil as a force is that if it doesn't exist then there is no need for God (who is the opposite of evil). Backwards reasoning there.. The existence of evil is a given in Catholic theology, a divine mystery. Satan is characterised as "a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44). Evil is necessary in order for a human being to choose freely between good and evil.

"But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it."?Wisdom 2:24 ('it' being evil)
The KJV does not include the Book of Wisdom (afaik) but the Catholic Bible does. There are 7 deuteronomic books in the Catholic Bible that are not used in the protestant version.

mathanxiety surely the 'it' in that quotation is death? It is the only word the pronoun could be replacing in that sentence. THere is no mention of evil.