To think Halloween is harmless?

[lavenderbongo]

So I am planning a halloween party for the kids and their parents. I intend to do all the usual games, wrap the mummy, apple bobbing, eating donuts off string. Just the normal kiddy stuff in an attempt to avoid annoying the nieghbours by doing trick or treating.
I was chatting to a colleague at work as she commented on my painted black nails and told her I was going to dress up as a witch and have a party for the kids. At this point she looked very cross and demanded "Do you know the origin on Bonfires?" I said isnt it to do with Guy Fawkes. Well no apprently it is from burning bones of little children and devil worship. Halloween is apparently a terrible festival that encourages devil worship and she would have never let her daughters dress up as little devils. (my youngest looks very cute in her little horns!)
So suitably chastised I looked up all this on the web. Bonfires were called bonefire but it was cattle bones not kids! Surely its about time we just thought of halloween as a time for a bit of fun and an opportunity to dress up? I think she is making a lot of fuss about nothing and buying into an old tradition based on superstition and beliefs that are no longer relevant. What do you think?

Hallowe'en is the best time of year- I love it. We will all be dressed up and the house decorated. We may even knock on your door trick or treating. I fully celebrate it and it isn't about devil worship. It's a bit of fun.

Murderofgoths, Halloween's backstory is mixed, but not celebrated by Christians. Death, evil and occult are celebrated at Halloween too (not by the posters here obv) ,but the main reason I avoid it.

"but not celebrated by Christians"

I did write that it wasn't Christian didn't I?

Tbf the kind of people who celebrate evil and the occult don't tend to restrict themselves to Hallowe'en. They probably do so at Xmas too.

Inky

You are SO mistaken.

Samain is the pagan festival celerated the same day. Halloween is 'All Hallow's Eve', ie the eve of all saints, saying it is unchristian is like saying Christmas eve is unchristian.

Death, evil and occult are celebrated at Halloween Er no, not true. The nearest thing to death being celebrated is the Mexican day of the dead where you prepare an alter with food in case your (deceased) loved ones come to visit.

Occult means, "of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies."

So that would be God, prayers ets.

Sashh, I guess the definition means what people want it to. As a Christian, I don't recognise that quoted definition as the bible forbids magic and astrology.

Sorry, too late at night, I don't agree with your conclusion, rather than quote.

Well, I doubt it does much harm. But... I still don't like it. I'm just not into death, gore, witches, vampires, ghosts etc I do wonder how people introduce their DCs to it and what the little ones think it is all about. It's just not my cup of tea. If I'm going to mark a festival (and I do, lots) I need to understand its origin and be ok with it.

So long as you're not hitting anyone (or annoying them with unsolicited door knocks) then go for your life I suppose!

I meant hurting not hitting. Although best to avoid hitting too

inky Prayers, miracles and belief in a higher power does equate to belief in magic/the supernatural whether you/the Bible want it to or not. Though I guess it takes us into the realms of, "I believe in prayer, you believe in magic"

I twitch at the association of Day of the Dead and the modern version of Halloween. Day of the Dead is on All Saints Day and the day after. It's a holiday of remembrance and is more in the way of thinking of the dead as guardian angels, not spooks or specters. It may be lighthearted, but it's not celebrating death, it's celebrating the lives of those who are no longer with us.

Inky

Don't you think God is a supernatural being then? And that miracles are not miraculous?

I think Inky was using the word occult in it's commonly used form, rather than that definition. Most people wouldn't associate the word occult with any of the major religions, even though they all believe to some extent in the supernatural.

She's already stated her reasons for not celebrating Hallowe'en, and also said she wouldn't push those reasons down anyone's throat, so why are people determined to pick her apart?

Halloween is the pagan end of the year.

Itts not devil worship its all about remembering your loved ones who have past

The majority of Christian festivals are on pagan holidays. Christmas for example is the pagan festival of Yule, its the winter solstice and where we recognise that the oak king hands his thrown to the holly king.

Most Christian things are unchristian and predate Christianity, it doesn't mean its devil worship.

Pagans don't even believe in the devil.

I lub trick or treating teens. If they are even slightly dressed up they get a treat. We haven't had any tricks, but we give out good stuff and the teens are generally way more grateful than the younger kids.

This year we have spider rings, pencils, kazoos and all sorts of other stuff. We have had glow bracelets before but then a neighbour started doing them too.

I grew up in NY, and Trick or Treating was one of the very exciting moments of the year. We would roam around after dark and collect small candies from anyone whom we knew even a little bit. It was thrilling to be outside at night, dressed up, knocking on strange doors (scary), and getting candy (which was not something my mother usually allowed). No old people in our neighbourhood were scared or bothered, and I don't know of anyone who had a bad experience.

It seems to me that Halloween is one of the only moments when people meet their neighbours, rather than sitting in front of their computers. There used to be many such occasions, but they have dwindled to almost nothing.

Halloween parties seem to sanitise a very mildly thrilling moment in the lives of our overprotected and controlled children, and the people who attend such parties are not the feral teenagers who apparently roam the streets terrorising old ladies. I don't object to the parties obviously, it's just that it's more exciting and unusual for a 5 year old to have the experience I had as a child than to go to a party.

Well put spare head

claraschu - you make it sound really fun! Unfortunately I'm in NZ and Halloween and the whole trick or treating thing is not so big over here.

She's already stated her reasons for not celebrating Hallowe'en, and also said she wouldn't push those reasons down anyone's throat, so why are people determined to pick her apart?

Because the reasons given are based on a wrong assumption. But also because I found what she said quite insulting.

Neither you or inky have told me what the definition of 'occult' you use is.

Puritans have been boycotting Hallowe'en for centuries, that's why Guy Fawkes was invented! Ignore your nutty colleague and enjoy the party with your kids. Hallowe'en has been around for a couple of thousand years and it's not going anywhere just because of a few puritanical killjoys!

Your friend doesn't know what she is talking about. It originated in Ireland and Scotland and has nothing to do with burning bones of children. The feast of All Hallows (hallow = holy/saints) is the holy day commemorating all saints 1st November and it is followed by the feast of All Souls (the also rans if you will) on the 2nd November.

The Christian commemoration was superimposed on an existing, pre-Christian celebration called Samhain. Samhain was the end of the cattle herding year and the start of the winter when cattle were taken from pasture, normally about half way between the Autumn Equinox and the winter Solstice. Customs related to Samhain involved fires (but no burning of children [hhmm]) from which each household kindled its own winter fire, and mischief, cross dressing and general nocturnal mayhem in rural districts. The dead were believed to walk among the living at Samhain as time went on and the concept of the holiday developed, and the disguising was done for protection. Offerings of food were left out for the deceased ancestors and the fairies.

In Irish, Samhain is 'November', aka Mi na Samhna. Other pagan feasts are commemorated in Irish month names, Bealtaine (Beltane) is May and Lunasa (Lughnasa) is August.

Hallowe'en was exported to the New World with Irish and Scottish emigrants and since the 70s has been turned into a very tame version of the old rural British Isles and American customs. American style Hallowe'en has now found its way back to the British Isles. I remember reading in a local paper in the US area where I lived an article about Hallowe'en in the 50s and 60s, which was apparently a wild sort of night in the suburb, with lots of egging of houses, burning bags o'poop on doorsteps, etc.

In Mexican culture there is the Dia de los Muertos which has a similar theme. Some of the artwork is pretty spooky, with skeletons abounding.

You can see how what we have at the present is all a mish mash of what is recorded from the past. By the time America was being settled by Irish and Scottish immigrants the customs had changed quite a lot. Growing up in Dublin (70s/80s) we used to dress up and go around asking for apples and nuts, and then gather at the local bonfire (composed during preceding weeks of all sorts of old planks and bits of wood donated from all over the neighbourhood). It has since then morphed into a trick or treat extravaganza, with fireworks, etc.

Forgot it was also a big thing on the Isle of Man..

It has been hijacked by Celtic Reconstructionists and all sorts of Woo artists of the post Christian avant garde but their practices have obv nothing to do with the cattle herding culture from which the major holidays of the British Isles emanated.

All Saints is a holy day of obligation in the Catholic calendar afaik. If I am right I will be going to mass as well as escorting DD4 as she goes out trick or treating. (The older DDs are going to parties to watch horror films with their too cool to trick or treat friends).

I loved the Halloween of my (Scottish) childhood. We spent weeks and weeks preparing a costume, which we would then wear as often as we could. On actual Halloween night, no matter what day of the week, we would go guising. This meant visiting as many houses as we could over the course of the evening. Not too many, as every householder who was participating would invite you in and hear your "party piece", a small performance. And then you would be rewarded with sweets or fruit or nuts. Some houses went the full hog and laid on dooking for apples etc. it was a real community event and the children had a sense of effort and reward. I hate when kids turn up on my doorstep in just a shoo bought mask and expect sweets or money for nothing. But I am in England now and there aren't even good old days of Halloween for the parents to remember AFAIK.

MNers are more horrified by the thought of a microscopic speck of sugar (or a fructose ridden apple) passing a child's lips than the religious beliefs according to previous threads.