To think Halloween is harmless?

[lavenderbongo]

So I am planning a halloween party for the kids and their parents. I intend to do all the usual games, wrap the mummy, apple bobbing, eating donuts off string. Just the normal kiddy stuff in an attempt to avoid annoying the nieghbours by doing trick or treating.
I was chatting to a colleague at work as she commented on my painted black nails and told her I was going to dress up as a witch and have a party for the kids. At this point she looked very cross and demanded "Do you know the origin on Bonfires?" I said isnt it to do with Guy Fawkes. Well no apprently it is from burning bones of little children and devil worship. Halloween is apparently a terrible festival that encourages devil worship and she would have never let her daughters dress up as little devils. (my youngest looks very cute in her little horns!)
So suitably chastised I looked up all this on the web. Bonfires were called bonefire but it was cattle bones not kids! Surely its about time we just thought of halloween as a time for a bit of fun and an opportunity to dress up? I think she is making a lot of fuss about nothing and buying into an old tradition based on superstition and beliefs that are no longer relevant. What do you think?

Very interesting thread. I'd never come across the idea that Halloween was unChristian before. The things you learn on MN!

Can't believe the OP's colleague though. Burning the bones of little children?? How do people come up with this bullshit? You'd have to be quite sick to even think of a thing like that, surely.

Those juice boxes are awesome! I must stop crushing them and start decorating NOW!

I think it's important to point out that while Christian is a blanket term, 'Christisn' hostility to Hallowe'en means fundamentalist Christian thought. Since the 1980s the likes of Jack Chick (a very rabid fundamentalist) have led the charge against Hallowe'en, J.K Rowling, etc.

The RC church (for one) has never been opposed to its members celebrating Hallowe'en. All Saints and All Souls days are celebrated at the same time and are important feasts in the Catholic calendar.

These feasts were suppressed in post Reformation England along with popular customs associated with the old peasant commemoration of Samhain which were held in the English countryside. They continued to be observed in Catholic Ireland alongside the secular Samhain customs.

Guy Fawkes Day was substituted as an anti Catholic alternative after the Gunpowder Plot, when Puritans were already gaining ground politically, and to celebrate the triumph of the protestant body politic over Catholic plotters. At the start it had an anti Catholic element to it.

Christmas was also suppressed, in 1647, under the Puritans. American Puritans also suppressed Hallowe'en and Christmas. German Catholics revived Christmas and Irish Catholics revived Hallowe'en there, in the 19th century.

Cattlebones you say?

I bloody love Halloween! Couldn't give a shit about it's origins or whether people choose to celebrate it or not [hgrin]
OP you should have told your friend to keep her moral outrage to herself and refuse to share your sweets with her. She sounds like an idiot.

Worth remembering that at this time of year animals were slaughtered to last the winter. Couple that with the very real fears of actual death if the coming winter was a hard one, it's easy to see why this festival is associated with the scary and fearful aspects of life.

I think it's to be embraced. A great time to remember those that have passed, say goodbye to the old year and prepare for a new one. A time to bring those things that most scare us to the forefront and face them.

Wow getting some interesting opinions - but glad that most people seem to think it harmless fun.

My kids loved the party. None of it was remotely scary ( we had age ranges from 3 to 8) apart frm when one 5 year old got a bit vere enthusiastic and apparently tried to suck the blood of the 3 year old :)

I live in NZ and found it has been a great way to get to know people, have a bit of fun and spread a bit of joy and laughter.

I think this topic is fascinating, I remember as a young ish teen having a debate with neighbour who boycotted halloween due to her Christian beliefs. When I tried to discuss the pagan / Christian cross overs in a lot of 'acceptable' festivals she wouldn't have any of it, when I asked where in the bible it said bring an evergreen tree indoors to celebrate baby Jesus birthday she practically through me out.

Personally I'm not religious or christened and while I think I believe in something, I'm not sure what that is, i probably identify most with paganism as I just think that makes the most sense, nature, seasons etc etc. rather than the magic of a virgin birth, walking on water and rising from the dead.
my biggest bug bear are Christians who don't know the origin of their own religion, and I don't mean baby Jesus, how it came to influence and supremacy and the pagan festivals it coincidently follows the same calendar of

Samhain, which is the tradition Halloween was taken from, is the night that the souls of your ancestors return to this world for one night. You are supposed to leave out offerings of food and drink for them and celebrate the togetherness of the whole family on the night that autumn turns to winter.

That is interesting, pointyfangs, I was wondering how Samahain is celebrated/commemorated by Pagans.

There's a similar Chinese festival where they celebrate and remember their ancesters and leave food out for them to eat as they visit... and as providence would have it, I was staying with a Thai (originally Chinese) family while they celebrated this.

Nothing to do with black cats, pumpkins, witches, bats or (intentionally) scary things then?

The scary things bit is intrinsic to the RC appreciation of the universe. The existence of evil is always acknowledged in the RC world view. The motifs of Hallowe'en are symbols of that.

I love that in the colleague's analysis it's unChristian because of her interpreting references to burning children's bones... Not that the Christian faith have ever celebrated burning people, have they?

Bonkers hypocrisy to refer to ancient custom (especially when they are being mid-interpreted), and completely ignore that the leaders and members of the Catholic faith spent decades murdering pagans and others by burning them at the stake in mass-viewed events. I think the last purported witch was hung in the 19th century in England.

Well, some people would say pagans were witches, HBBPE. And then there's Wicca as a complicating factor as well. But no, a lot of the fringe decorations of Hallowe'en as we know it are recent additions. Though pumpkins are harvest symbol.

I'm not pagan myself, but have friends who are. If I weren't an atheist I would be a pagan.

I think that people are misunderstanding Christianity. Christians don't usually object to Halloween simply because of history or because their church does or does not instruct them to take part in any celebrations. It's more to do with their personal relationship with God and with their personal spiritual beliefs than anything else.

I don't personally take part in Halloween celebrations and I don't believe that it's harmless, because of my spiritual beliefs. I'm RC but have absolutely no interest in whether or not my church teaches that Halloween is right or wrong. My beliefs are based purely on my personal beliefs and in what I believe is the right way to live my life.

I have come face to face with evil and I know it exists and never wish to have that experience again and don't want my children to either. Halloween may be harmless dressing up and games, but, to me, it represents something far more sinister and this is why I avoid it. I'm not a killjoy, I just have a different view from a lot of others based partly on my past experiences. I take no notice whatsoever of my church's teaching on the matter. My personal relationship with God is what guides me.

So what are your objections, hiddenhome? And what part of Hallowe'en is it that clashes with your spirituality? The commercialised costumes/face paint/trick or treating stuff is really not worth objecting to, unless you have issues with the commodification of festivals in general. I'd actually understand that.

However, if your objections centre on the underlying ancient Pagan traditions I would have a problem understanding you, because as I and several other posters have stated above, paganism and satanism have all too often been conflated.

Hiddenhome, I don't think anyone goes around doing absolutely everything their own particular church says to do, or believing every single iota of doctrine, etc (or even knowing every iota of doctrine). Most people form their own beliefs, emphasise whatever it is that they personally want to from their faith.

When it comes to evil however, the RC church acknowledges it exists and is a force to be reckoned with, as you seem to have done in your own way.

My objections are deeply personal to me pointyfangs. It's not about commercialisation or pagan traditions or anything like that. I explained that my objections weren't down to tradition or church teaching or anything like that.

That's fine then, hiddenhome. I feel that you have come face to face with real evil, no-one should have to do that. I hope your faith gives you strength and happiness.

that's very kind, thank you

I am certainly not joyless, but I do not hold with Hallowe'en being "celebrated" in the way it is these days. It's American silliness - and, having witnessed an OAP's wheelie bin being set alight because he wouldn't answer the door to trick or treaters I am completely anti what seems to be an excuse to bully people.

My DH is Scottish and grew up going guising (sp?) which seems much pleasanter - do a "turn" in return for a treat.

I'm not sure what your colleague was on about with the bonfires, though... sounds like she was confusing Nov 5th/Hallowe'en/Utter Bollocks...

I love halloween. I've just this evening decorated for it!

I am Scottish and as others have mentioned we went guising where we had to sing a song or tell a joke or say a poem etc, we were then rewarded with a treat for doing so.

I'm also a Christian and attend church regularly. My church has no problem with it. It's all just a bit of fun for the children.

The mischief was a traditional part of the celebration. It didn't come from America.

And the bonfires were always a big part of Hallwowe'en in Ireland (but never with any hint of burning children, etc)

Interesting. I'd have said acting out silly games with the idea of evil is quite a traditional way of dealing with its existence. Maybe people feel it draws the sting from it and reassures them that they can deal with it. Quite a lot of festivals - including Christian ones - seem to centre on the idea of a day/period when things are difficult and dangerous, and certain communal rituals are called for to recognise and ward off evil (leaving a saucer of milk out for fairies, resisting temptation for Lent, lighting a bonfire against the dark, whatever).