to think that if those care workers had done what they did to NT kids rather than learning disabled adults the sentences would have been more severe?

[Greensleeves]

I watched the documentary about Winterbourne View and it was one of the saddest things I have ever seen. I think the sentences are a joke. Wayne Rogers in particular delighted in torturing powerless people who couldn't defend themselves.

I can't help wondering whether the sense of public outrage, and the severity of the sentences, would have been greater if the victims had not been SN adults?

and

Edam I'd appreciate it if you would actually read my posts. To directly quote what I said - "I have no idea if there is a generally higher level of compassion towards people with disabilities there or not." I DID NOT say lack of abortion makes Ireland a better place for children, so you just made that up in your own head.

I will not leave the thread, and I'm sure the people who are engaging with me and in some cases agreeing with me won't leave either. If you are not interested in my posts, continue not to read them properly and talk to people you want to talk to.

Pagwatch.. That was a disgustingly insensitive thing for them to do, shocking, like you say as if these children had no feelings or consequence. Hope your ds was ok.

I hope their time in prison is eventful and they get a taste of their own medicine.

"LFC - that's what I'm trying to say, although I would go further and say that if you wouldn't look after a child with disabilities yourself, and would go so far as to abort an otherwise wanted child because of a disability then your opinion on how people with disabilities are cared for isn't very valid. You don't want anything to do with people with disabilities so don't pretend you do in order to act all outraged when something like this happens. It annoys me intensely when people wring their hands over something like this and act all indignant while at the same time the people they feel such compassion for wouldn't even exist if they had happened to be their child. It just comes across as so hypocritical to me. If you hand on heart say "I would abort a child with disabilities" - fair enough, that's your choice. But don't then go on about how they should be cared for. You would not even want that child if it was your own flesh and blood, so don't pretend to care"

You have misunderstood me. I would not have the pre natal tests. If the foetus had severe abnormalities before 12 weeks then I would abort - after that I wouldn't unless advised that the child could not sustain life at term.

I work with children with SN in a therapeutic way so I do 'care' - I have plenty to 'do with children with disabilities' as I provide respite care for the local authority.

None of that means that I would be able to look after a severely disabled child in this shitty disablist society - and while the foetus is young enough to abort I would do so. NOT AFTER.

Because I believe that abortion is right for me in those circumstances.

Frankly, it sounds like you're saying that you don't agree with abortion at all - is that what you're saying?

Cailin, don't make me out to be the bad guy here. You are derailing this thread to follow your own agenda. It's bad manners anyway, but particularly distasteful when it's a thread about the abuse of vulnerable people.

I don't agree edam.

I can understand aborting a child who will only suffer and die after birth. Other than that I don't agree with abortion purely for disability no and I definitely don't agree with the NHS normalising the idea that foetuses with Down syndrome need to be found and aborted.

V good point, sinister. Let's not forget that guy who just got sent to prison for wearing a t-shirt. (OK, it was not very nice to wear an anti-police slogan the day two officers are being buried, but still, hardly compares to actual violence.)

how sad that this thread is being derailed
it is such an important subject which could affect anyone
people might think "oh my kids will be ok as they are not disabled"
but as we all know it can happen at any time to anyone.
this should be out there, it should be something that everyone cares about.
but sadly a thread about a "cleb" will get more interest.

I would not put matters as trenchantly as Caitlin has but I would not call her views "vile". Personally, I think the fact that the law permits later terminations for pregnancies for reasons of disability than otherwise is pretty vile. i would rather save my outrage for that.
That is not to say I am anti-abortion; I am not. but the way the law stands clearly sends a message that the lives of those with disabilities are less valuable. Termination at any stage should be permitted for all pregnancies or none.

LFC- well you'd be a bit stuffed if your child had something that wouldn't show on a scan, like autism, especially regressive autism which wasn't evident until much later, I think you'd find you'd "have to" manage to bring up a child in a shitty disablist society. Can never understand when people write "I just couldn't manage a disabled child". You just do as it is your child.

Callin you are doing 2+2=865

By your logic anyone who aborts a presumably NT child for their own reasons therefore has no right to give a flying fuck about child abuse?

And the NHS don't allow abortions where disabilities are screened for due to a systematic downgrading of their right to life, they do so pure and simply because of cost management. It costs less to abort a disabled child than it does to pay for their care. Not nice but true. The same reason as they dont screen for GBS although it's the highest form of childhood infection. It's because those born with if get well or die in the main therefore it costs less to care for them than it does to test

It reflects the fact that sadly people (for the NHS at least) stack up as numbers and statistics not as an emotional "worthy or not worthy" of life.

anyway I am off as I don't really feel inclined to read about aborting disabled children while my own runs around giggling

I'm agreeing with Edam and LFC.

I am support worker for adults with learning disabilities, I specifically work for a charity that advocates for the rights of people with learning disabilities as well as running care homes, day centers, etc, for disabled adults. I'm currently pregnant and refused to be screened for Down's Syndrome (DS) because I would happily raise a child with DS.

However that is my choice, I am also extremely pro-choice. I don't think anyone has the right to judge a woman for having an abortion because their child has DS, until you've been in their situation. I have a large family support base, this will be my first child, I am in good physical/mental health and I have a lot of knowledge around caring for adults with learning disabilities, not every woman is so lucky.

From a legal perspective I think the fault here lies not with the setncing court but the law itself. Each individual instance of abuse here was, taken alone, a relatively minor act of violence; thus the defendants could not be charged with the more serious offences which would have enabled them to be dealt with in the Crown Court (at least that's what I've gathered thus far, I may be wrong). The fact was that each instance added up to a course of conduct which was extremely serious and damaging. Thought needs to be given to amending the law to cover this sort of course of conduct properly. you can charge "neglect", for example, where there is persistent failure to care for a child over a sustained period. an offence which works a bit like that might be helpful.

I support a woman's right to abort a fetus is she is unable to afford to raise a child, does that mean I don't care about poor children.

I don't think the relevant question is what individuals personally support. the question is what the law permits, and the statement that makes about the values of this society. I cannot see how the current difference in approach to time limits for termination makes anything other than a very negative statement about how we value people with disabilities.

I support a woman's right to terminate, I don't support it being pushed more for non-terminal disability than for other reasons- and i've been on the end of some quite persuasive pushing in my time, after ds3's bloods were high risk for DS. But I do think until more support for families exists then it's understandable, if not a choice I'd make. I think that people with no experience of disability must find it very hard to cope with such a diagnosis, I am lucky in that disability was something that had always been around me- school, work- so I didn't have that immense fear upon diagnosis.

I think also that the sentences for this, regardless of why, were ridiculously small. Those poor, poor people.

I don't judge either, although i don't like reading about termination for disabilities, but it just always puzzles me that people are so positive they couldnt cope, when most disabilities are not able to be scanned for and people just have to cope.

my feelings are more that it's a shame that people don't realise they are capable of a lot more than they think.

If someone told me they had terminated for a disability I wouldn't be harsh to them or judge them for their actions though, would just think they might have surprised themselves with their strength if they hadn't, at the very most.

Society has never had an acceptable view of disabled children or adults, aborting fetuses because they have DS is a symptom of this, not a cause. You change societies view of disabled people, you provide parents of children with disabilities adequate support and you'll see the numbers decrease. But again the choice should still be available and shaming women who make that choice helps no-one and, yes, saying aborting a fetus with DS is vile w/o knowing the full situation is shaming.

I pretty much agree with what CupidStunt just said

Oh and being a Carer in a home like that?

if you have respect and like the people you work with, then actually it's NOT that hard job. I did it for enough years to have an opinion. The management can be shites, but being with the residents and working with them is a priveledge.

I don't think anyone said aborting a foetus with DS is vile. What I said was vile was the a government sponsored scheme, run by the NHS, aimed at lowering the number of children with DS. A vulnerable woman, unsure she can cope, is not going to be helped by the fact that the NHS expects you to test for DS and to then abort if your child is found to have it.