to think that if those care workers had done what they did to NT kids rather than learning disabled adults the sentences would have been more severe?

[Greensleeves]

I watched the documentary about Winterbourne View and it was one of the saddest things I have ever seen. I think the sentences are a joke. Wayne Rogers in particular delighted in torturing powerless people who couldn't defend themselves.

I can't help wondering whether the sense of public outrage, and the severity of the sentences, would have been greater if the victims had not been SN adults?

and

I do think that the fact that the perpetrators showed remorse was taken into account. Also the fact that although it is likely that they had behaved badly for long before the BBC documentary they could only be charged and sentenced for the specific acts that the BBC uncovered as that was all they had evidence for and therefore all they were charged with was key to the sentencing times.

I hope that what comes out of this is a review of how care homes are managed and that it is understood that vulnerable people need to have much more protection than they currently do.

Well Calin when my daughter was born she was very severely disabled, she lived a short life in massive pain, I wanted the best treatment for her, of course I did, she sady died. When I found out it was genetic I was already pregnant. If it had been discovered my child had the same disability I would have had an abortion, that doesn't mean I didn't love my daughter, it doesn't mean that she didn't deserve care when she was alive, it means I wouldn't put another child through that, I was very fortunate that wasn't the case for me, I know other people who haven't been so lucky. I have never known someone to terminate a pregnancy because of a disability without their thoughts being firmly about the child they are carrying.

So no it doesn't make it 'fucked up' to think like that at all.

They y showed remorse? They are barely human.

I don't think showing remorse should constitute mitigation at all. Any fool can say sorry. And one of the offenders began his interview by bleating about what a hard job it is (and I know it is, but that has bugger all to do with vindictively torturing the clients!)

I don't know where the victims' relatives get their dignity from. I would be foaming at the mouth.

Sorry, mentioning the Cameron thing sounded like a non-sequitur. But it's been bugging me because of what it says about how society views adults with SN.

I couldn't watch the documentary, it was too upsetting.
I have seen some of the clips and their sentences were way too low.
Vile, vile people.
My sister works with people with LDs, it's always first on the list for cutbacks by the council and she's found her job harder and harder, to the extent she is now off for the second time with stress and anxiety.
She genuinely cares for her clients welfare and is very close to many of them, as are her colleagues.
It's council run, and has high standards. I wonder how these people actually got employed at all, they were clearly unsuited for the work.

Gosh Pag that's fucking disgusting behaviour. How you didn't cause a massive scene I don't know. It must have taken all your will power not to bludgeon the twats with your handbag.

It did CelineMcBean.
I got all flushed and shakey with anger. But the dc were performing and it would have massively upset the other parents who were in blissful ignorance.

I tried to phone them but their website didn't have a number. I emailed but shockingly, no reply.
Wankers

Totally agree Pagwstch. Before the birth of my disabled DS I must have have been one of the rare genuine few whom did not feel negativity towards the disabled.

I'm sorry to hear about your daughter missymoo. But my opinion isn't changed. There is a massive difference between a condition where the child is pretty much guaranteed to be in pain and not to live long, and a disability like Down syndrome, where a large proportion (though I know not all) of those born with it can live a relatively long life. Down syndrome is the only disability routinely tested for (although others are looked for and identified in scans) and discovery of the disability often leads to termination. Having a government-sanctioned scheme to ensure as few people with a certain disability are born as possible is bound to lead to those who are born with the disability being seen as an aberration. You can't on the one hand say "It is understandable for a parent not to want a child with Down syndrome" while at the same time saying "but people with Down syndrome are valuable." Either people with DS are valuable people who have as much right to life as anyone else, or they're not. You can't have it both ways.

Terminating a child who you know will be in pain and will not survive is understandable - you are terminating for the good of the child. But to say you would terminate a child with DS "for the good of the child" implies that a life with DS is not worth living. Until we see a life with DS as a life that is worth living, then there's no point in bleating on about abuse like this. It is awful and horrendous, but it reflects the beliefs of our society as a whole.

That's appalling of them

X-posted. Was replying to Pagwatch.

I once slapped a boy across the face and stormed out of the room during an English lesson, because the stupid posturing twat came out with the "disabled people are a drain o the economy and should be disposed of" line.

I went back later and apologised to the teacher, who said "not at all, my dear"

I also worked with someone (she was a matron in a boarding school when I knew her, she had a background in care homes) who bragged to me about an elderly patient who had dementia and used to swear at people. She got sworn at while she was undressing him, so she pulled his socks off and stuffed them in his mouth.

Sadly there really are people who hate the disabled. Though it beggars belief that there should be a whole clutch of them running a care home

I'm not at all surprised. Yes, disgusted.
But my children are not considered human, even by people on these very boards. There are people who spout they should not be alive, they are a drain on humanity blaaaaaah. Euthanasia anyone?

These are kids. They're cute and wonderful, but people are that bitter and twisted and think we get something for nothing. I'm genuinely terrified for my kids when they reach adulthood and hope to hell I am able to care for them for many, many years yet. The hate can only get worse.

Because the chances of them being abused is very high. Especially as the penalties for such abuse are so very slight.

yanbu.

I was also thinking about how things might (maybe?) improve if care workers were paid a better wage. The thought of any Tom, Dick and Harry being shunted off benefits and working in a care home just because it's a job is asking for trouble IMHO.

gosh, hope that post wasn't out of place. It's been bugging me that's all. Care workers should be people who are trained and who do care. Not like that lot .

I think part of the problem is that it's seen as someone else's problem - people with SN kids live in terror of them having to go into adult residential care, but those with NT kids, with the best will in the world, don't give it that much thought.

But any child can have an accident or a sudden illness and end up in the same boat. It's everyone's problem and everyone's responsibility.

I couldn't watch that documentary, they used a clip of it in a trailer the other week and it was so upsetting...

The sentences are disgusting. Disgusting.

What I really don't understand is how abuse like that becomes acceptable within what must be a fairly disparate group of people. Why did no-one blow the whistle earlier? And if it's not a disparate group of people, how did they 'find' each other - I'm not expressing that well, I mean how do so many evil people end up working at the same place at the same time? What can we do to make sure that doesn't happen again?

Sadly I'd bet quite a lot of money on this not being the only place where cruelty is happening. My sister is an LD nurse and has horrifying tales to tell, not least about the way doctors and nurses (who you would think knew better) treat her patients. The A&E dept who sent her patient with unstable angina and a possible heart attack back becuase they couldn't be bothered to treat him (wasn't easy to communicate so hey, let's throw him out), for instance.

What is really worrying is the CQC point blank refusing to do anything about complaints. They knew Winterbourne View was appalling. They were told residents were being treated like shit. Yet they said 'not our problem gov'. I don't trust the CQC to have learned from this. At all.

Panorama can't be in every residential home and hospital. What happens when people aren't being filmed?

Sorry,i didn't see this thread.

The RCN have Castleck,the owners of Winterbourne View,sponsoring next years 'excellence in nursing' awards for the LD category.

How can they think they are an acceptable outfit to do this and how awful for the victims and their families.

Wilson, I've seen "good," professional people behave in an appalling manner towards people with disabilities. These are people who are highly trained and who in other areas of their life are completely normal. If you have a group of people who are perhaps poorly educated, used to being downtrodden or bottom of the pecking order, poorly paid, treated badly by management, the conditions are perfect for them to start targeting a group weaker than they - ie their clients. Once it becomes acceptable people start doing it without even thinking. They're not necessarily monsters and I would say underlying their behaviour is an unexamined belief that the people they were abusing didn't feel or understand the abuse.

Something that might interest you is a famous experiment from the 70s where a psychologist set up a fake "prison" in Stanford University and recruited "prisoners" and "guards" from among the students. The students knew the situation wasn't real and in spite of that the power that the guards felt over the prisoners caused them to abuse them so badly that the experiment had to be called off. These were "normal" educated young adults with no specific problems. Certain situations appeal to the sadistic side that unfortunately the vast majority of people have. Luckily most of us can suppress it and behave normally. But in a situation like that care home, where the staff had free reign and felt they could get away with anything the conditions were ripe for the power they felt to completely corrupt them.

Thank you Cailin, that is a very interesting post.

Sorry should have said that the psychologist who ran the experiment was Phillip Zimbardo, if you want to look him up. His research makes for some tough reading.

fucking hell yanbu the sentence's are a joke,
yes I agree if they had done this to nt people it would have been higher.

YABU sentencing would have added extra on for hte fact that they were vulnerable