to think that if those care workers had done what they did to NT kids rather than learning disabled adults the sentences would have been more severe?

[Greensleeves]

I watched the documentary about Winterbourne View and it was one of the saddest things I have ever seen. I think the sentences are a joke. Wayne Rogers in particular delighted in torturing powerless people who couldn't defend themselves.

I can't help wondering whether the sense of public outrage, and the severity of the sentences, would have been greater if the victims had not been SN adults?

and

Out of interest crashdoll - do you agree with the law that a child with disabilities can be aborted up to term whereas a child without disabilities can't?

I want to say no but I'm not sure. Also, any child with a disability cannot be aborted up to term, it is exceptional cases.

The 20 week scan is an anomaly scan, is it not? Using your logic, perhaps we should do away with those.

And Jellybeans and I were opening the debate by discussing other disabilities.

Not necessarily crashdoll, as something could be identified in the scan that could save the child's life.

You said one of the reasons why you're focusing on Down's Syndrome is because it's screened, well so are other conditions yet you're ignoring how serious they can be.

In fact I don't think you care as much as you think Cailin about this case. Otherwise you would talk about it more.

'Jellybeans - having testing in order to save a child's life is not the same as having testing in order to decide whether to abort the child. That's pretty obvious I think. '

You are missing the point. Not everyone faced with a choice set out to do so. Many will have turned down the 16 week blood tests yet are faced with bad results from the 20 week scan. If the choice then becomes carry on with the pregnancy till the baby suffers and dies OR terminate the pregnancy. That is the choice we were faced with-not a life with a disabled child. There was NO treatment because they won't treat if the amnio is not normal as it is futile and cannot be cured. So suddenly after not setting out to have tests people can face decisions anyway. It may not be the choice to have a disabled child but of whether the baby dies now or later. What about babies who go to term but parents decide not to let them have treatment? Decide to discontinue life support etc?

You judge my friend and that is fine for you. However it is just the view of somebody who has never been there so should be taken with a pinch of salt. She has been there and lived it. It is because of her love for her child she decided she could not cope with another child with high needs. I respect her views. I got a positive risk for Downs with one of my pregnancies and did not pursue further testing as we felt unless there was heart defects etc on the scan then we would go ahead anyway. But that doesn't mean i would judge others for having more tests/not going ahead. There can be severe heart defects etc with any chromosome disorder. Surely parents know what they can cope with, it is their baby-sometimes the decisions are meant out of kindness to prevent suffering/hardship etc. NOT as you seem to think that they just don't like it anymore as it is disabled.

To be fair, Brycie, not talking about a case doesn't mean you don't care about it. I haven't talked a lot about it on here but it is discussed at university, in seminars (I'm a social work student) and I have read all the reports, learning from them to inform my future practice as I want to be an LD SWer.

My son is often not made welcome in establishments because of his disability. Pubs mainly....despite him being 27 and having an ID card. I tell him to go to places that deserve his custom.

No you are right.

I'm personally not making a judgement on the personal reasons WHY people make the decision to terminate a pregnancy when the foetus is discovered to have one of any number of disabilities.

What I AM making a judgment on is the fact that it is legal to terminate a pregnancy with disabilities far later than it is legal to terminate a pregnancy without disabilities.

That IS Societal discrimination, whether it is on moral grounds or monetary grounds.

I DO understand that for whatever reason some parents feel they couldn't cope with a child with disabilities. What I don't understand is why they are allowed to end the life of that child when that child could live outside the womb simply BECAUSE that child will have a disability.

The limit should be 24 weeks for both.

Anyway, onto sentencing. Can anyone put my mind at rest that these abusive 'care' workers won't be made to do ANY sort of care work for their community service.

The thought of them being anywhere near any vulnerable people chills my blood.

There can be severe heart defects in otherwise healthy babies too. I had a flashy 3-D heart scan of DS3 when I was carrying him.

NOT so that I could abort if he did have them, that thought wouldn't have even entered my mind.

But so that he could be referred prenatally to a specialist cardiac consultant if necessary. To enable him to receive the best treatment possible.

To add another dimension to this...how are we going to make sure another Winterborne does not happen? I mean the culprits have been through court and received their sentences but it doesn't deal with the main issue of prevention.

I can't help but feel that in a society which is demonising those claiming disability focused benefits that we desensitise society to the real needs of people who need care. They are seen as weaker or a drain on resources....it is worrying me that we are doing this. Are people really only valuable if thy can work?

The other issue is that these people can't for those who are very vulnerable are ultimately untouchable in any professional capacity. Okay so they go to prison but what then? At least in the cases of the two qualified nurses involved it can go the the NMC and they can be struck off....as they WILL be.
And yet the culture in that hospital would take a very strong individual to come in and turn things round. You would never turn round someone like Wayne Rogers who was utterly sadistic....and a seeming leader who intimidated other members of staff.

If the child is going to suffer and die not long after birth there is a strong argument to be made for termination for the good of the child. In that case, you are not causing the child's death, you are hastening something inevitable to prevent suffering that you know is going to happen. There is a big difference IMO between that and terminating a foetus that could live a long and happy life. I wonder do others agree, or would you see terminating a child with Down syndrome the same as terminating a child with harlequin icthyosis? And if so, why?

That's a tough question to answer Jake. IME in situations where a person can't speak up for themselves the potential for abuse to happen is huge. Even quite normal, typically kind people can behave in quite a cruel way without realising it. Working with vulnerable people is a big draw for someone with a particularly cruel streak, and it is easy to hide abuse when the victim can't tell anyone about it. Ideally a person would never work alone with a vulnerable client but in reality there isn't the funding for that level of staffing, particularly for those that need a high level of care.

I don't know what the solution is, really.

I was discussing it with a relative who said "well if you pay peanuts etc.." Meaning that the pay was so poor only those totally unsuited to this kind of work might take it up in the absence of any other work. I am not sure I totally agree with that as I have met many lovely people working in nursing homes etc who DO care for their patients/clients and go out of their way to make their lives happier and more comfortable. It is a sad fact though that too many untrained and inexperienced people are doing this kind of work with little training to deal with the complications and challenges which occur.

And this is not new either...in 1986 I was escorted from the grounds of a hospital for people with physical and learning disabilities because I reported a staff member for punching a patient. He was sacked but I was made to feel a really awful person who had caused no end of trouble....they moved me to another hospital. The assault was not the first concerning behaviour I had seen but was definitely the worst. The feeling I got was that I would not be safe in the hospital any longer and it would be better if they moved me.

Rethink is a charity that provides advocates with people who have mental disabilities

Good question Jake, I'm going to be supporting Rethink because of what happened at Winterbourne. And yes, the bosses got off scott free. Shameful.

Sorry I was trying to keep away from threads like this due to having my DS in a residential unit sooner or later. I have only got as far as the 1st page and I do agree with callinas views with the exception of 'people with disabilities will never be seens as fully human' which I think just could of been worded better. I am the parent of a 12 year old child with down syndrome and life has been traumatic enough with the system.

some do see these vulnerable people without a voice and their lives don't matter................but they should have a 'voice' and they should matter !!

however some kids/adults with DS don't live the pain free life or easier life callina is on about.

What I AM making a judgment on is the fact that it is legal to terminate a pregnancy with disabilities far later than it is legal to terminate a pregnancy without disabilities.

Fair point and one I cannot disagree with. I know the law says only in extreme cases but I wonder what 'extreme' means. I also wonder if there is any case law surrounding this. I will have look but not tonight, too tired and Strictly is on!

I think pay, training, etc are massive issues. We don't accept completely untrained, unsupervised minimum wage workers in nurseries or schools, do we? (Not saying that nursery work is particularly well paid but training, supervision, etc is generally very tight.)

I am also petrified about the potential for people on workfare being sent to do caring jobs.

To add another dimension to this...how are we going to make sure another Winterborne does not happen?

I heard someone suggest that while the pay for care workers is so low, neglect and a poor work ethic will never be fully eradicated. Don't get me wrong, I know some absolutely wonderful people working in this sort of side of the caring profession but some of them are lazy and this impacts heavily on service users. Whether the low pay issue is a factor in these sorts of cases, I am not so sure. Evil people are often attracted to the vulnerable, those who can't communicate or stand up for themselves. As a society, we need to protect the vulnerable more. We need to value the vulnerable, respect them and see their strengths because everyone has strengths. I work with a lot of people with learning disabilities and their families often say "they can't do this, they can't do that" but I always want to know what they can do. I used to volunteer in a centre that encouraged service users to run the place themselves (with support in a lot of cases); make or serve food, man the reception desk, cleaning up at the end of sessions etc. It was a fantastic place to work and be. People with disabilities have as much to contribute as people without disabilities. Some people with disabilities will never be able to contribute a great deal but then, some people without disabilities don't contribute a great deal to society either! Everyone has value, everyone has worth, everyone has a place on this planet.

That's a fantastic post crash, it's very complex though. When you're negotiating your way through the maze of services and doors being slammed in your face it's very difficult to stay positive about DS condition (and he is very mild) because you're always saying 'no, you need to adjust your expectations, he really can't deal with things in an NT way' that all you see is the problems. And essentially, you're your child's cheerleader, you know? A HCP pulled me up on that during his (incredibly long and stressful) dx process, I wasn't very happy about it at the time but she was dead right. As are you.

if the needs are being met though crash otherwise they still may not function positively

It's tough one isn't it. I agree that I don't think it is just about the relatively low pay. There are plenty of jobs which are badly paid.

I once worked for an animal charity. As well as the many volunteers working in the animal centres, the majority of the paid staff doing basic duties (cleaning kennels, mucking out etc) were on a pretty low wage. Every single one of them I ever met seemed absolutely dedicated to the 'cause', and put up with pretty horrible stuff (not sure I'd like to spend my day clearing up dog poo!), and did it because they adored working with animals. But of course - animals are cute. Adults with LD are not.

Think it's probably endemic in many of the 'caring' professions overall actually. It must be a top-down attitude. If top management cared more there would be rigorous recruitment policies and checks, ongoing rigorous supervision, proper training, and measures ensuring safeguards were in place. The fact that these people in this case were able to do what they did, so many of them, and probably for some time, means that supervision must have been minimal or non-existant. Or, if senior management did know, turned a blind eye. Not sure which is worse tbh

It absolutely is symptomatic of society's view of adults with LD - also old people (hasn't similar abuse been uncovered in old peoples' homes?), and no doubt with elderly people with dementia or mental illness.

(Just as an side but related issue, my late MIL had long-term mental illness and other physical illnesses and for many years relied on homehelp to come to her house, make sure she'd eaten, taken her drugs etc. It was unbelievable how often the carers would drop in, leave food on a plate, not check if she ate it (she was malnourished as a result) or didn't take her drugs (including for life-threatening illness eg angina). DP made several formal complaints. The company was, of course, outsourced to a private company by the local authority.)

The fact is that some groups of people are deemed less important than others. So many factors perpetuate this.