not to contribute to the Shoebox Appeal

[teamboleyn]

because it has a Christian message 'attached'? I have nothing against Christianity but can they not do a charitable act without having an ulterior motive?

OhDearSpareHeadTwo So glad somebody mentioned the Rotary Club's shoeboxes - I would have linked to it if you hadn't first.

Our DC's schools do the Rotary Club one. I fill a box on behalf of my DS who doesn't understand about such things; I do it on the principle that there will be a small child like him who has been given a box of the kind of things that small children covet and a woolly hat and gloves, and I hope he likes it and it makes him happy. That's all.

Rotary Shoebox is another alternative to suggest to schools if you're not happy with OCC.

There's loads of things in the uk that give to those in need at Christmas. Plenty of local radio stations / shopping centres organised 'buy an extra gift at Christmas this year' appeals, adsa have a massive box each year to put your extra gift in. I'm amazed that people seem unaware of such schemes. Alternatively why not donate to your nearest children's home, childrens ward or refugee? I still see nothing wrong In operation Christmas child though, I think people are over thinking things. Like others have said these people are not thick, they can make there own minds up regarding religion. A jw (sorry can't spell it) knocking at my door doesn't suddenly make me one. Surely it's a nice thing to be teaching our children that there are other children less fortunate then themselves? Obviously there's more than one way of doing it, but I'm not convinced children understand direct debits the same way.

I've never seen an Asda massive box, and I'm within walking distance of one and have been for years. Maybe they don't do them at all Asda's throughout the country? Would donate as well if I knew ours did.
Agreed though, that sometimes people seriously overthink things. T'was me upthread who said about I take a JW leaflet at the door when they call, cos I'm too soft to tell them to flat out piss off, lol.
Doesn't mean I automatically need to become a JW just because I smiled, nodded, then said I'd take a leaflet so I could shut the door on them
Same with the OCC leaflets. Bet half of them are the same as me, and chuck the feckers in the bin.
I agree wholeheartedly, in that I think the lesson to be teaching children is that there are some less fortunate who aren't like them who receive a sack full of presents, AND an overfilled stocking, as well as having a fit to explode I never want to see food again type overstretched belly over Christmas.
Small children don't understand direct debits and all year round giving, and nor should they have to. From their point of view, they just want to give toys to children who aren't likely to get much, and that's surely an important lesson to be teaching them.

I think it's great that the citizens of Mumsnet question this, and really poor that so many schools are sucked in.

SP is an evangelical organisation whose purpose is to prostyletise. Fair enough, that is their religious mission, and if you want to convert souls to Jesus.

But if they were up front about this rather than hid behind the charade of wrapping and distributing boxes of tat around the world, schools would
say "that isn't for us".

All the guilt tripping is bollocks.

Tescos do a Giving tree, lots of places have schemes- e.g. Our local paper. It is easy to find an alternative rather than just stop.

For the benefit of posters saying that "it's just a box of gifts" and that they "don't have to read the leaflet" I think it's worth repeating:

The Greatest Journey programme has three steps: first is receipt of a Christmas box with 'colourful storybooks that explain the Good News of Jesus in their local language', second is a 12-step bible-study programme, third is acceptance into the local church

It's this bit that bothers me. Especially as the 12 step programme comes with further gifts - and is advertised as such. "Become a Christian and get Presents" - Now thats just plain wrong. If you are starving (as someone up thread said) wouldn't you do anything to get your hands on some food? Thats what OCC is banking on. 'Renounce your dirty Muslim beliefs and we'll feed you, become a nice Christian and get presents'

Send gifts by all means - Link Romania is fab and is the one we have used this year - but don't pressure a child to convert with the promise of toys or sweets.

Samaritan's Purse is an evangelical organisation. The aim of their 'Operation Christmas Child' is NOT to give gifts to children at Christmas, it's to convert children to Christianity - it's as simple as that.

Here is their own OCC annual report: www.samaritanspurse.org/pdf/2011occsr.pdf

Note all the headlines, like "Opening doors to the Gospel" and the quotations like "The children are very happy with their boxes. All the people in town will know about Jesus Christ now".

The report is very clear: "Since 1993, more than 94 million boys and girls in over 130 countries have experienced God?s love through your shoe box gifts, enabling local churches and ministry partners to share the life-changing Gospel of Jesus Christ?God?s greatest gift".

If you're happy with that, fine. But many people who participate in OCC simply aren't aware that is the aim, and would not be happy if they were - and I think that's wrong.

Thats really informative about the OCC, I have family members who do shoeboxes so must find out which charity they do them for.

I had a friend who worked in Sure Start and was responsible for giving out gifts to the "deprived" children in her area (not sure of the name of charity but it was one of those ones where you leave an extra gift in supermarkets) and she nearly ate her own santa hat because she said that the families in receipt could actually specify on the forms what gifts they would prefer; many people stating X box etc. She said they all had massive plasma TV screens on the walls and kids in designer gear (they delivered the gifts at home because the "deprived" people can't walk to local centre). Anyway each child got a bag of stuff (this wasn't on christmas day, was several weeks beforehand) and all you had to do to be elligible was to get GP/health visitor to declare that you are in receipt of means tested benefits.

What she told me really spoilt the mental image I grew up with (we always supported these appeals) of a poor child waking up on christmas morning to find one present under the tree, and the joy of opening it.

As it happened the next year I was in receipt of benefits and my health visitor was practically begging me to accept presents/food hampers/gift vouchers which I politely but firmly declined on matter of principle.

I found this thread really thought-provoking and wanted to join in. I am a Christian and I love to look at things objectively.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to choose not to donate to causes that represent or proclaim beliefs that you disagree with. Samaritans Purse (and Operation Christmas Child) should be clear(er) about who and what they are.

May I offer another perspective on how charity and mission can coexist, without charity just being the gift wrap of an 'ulterior motive'?...

Christians believe that there is a God who loves people and because they have experienced this love themselves, they want to show love to others. This could and should be able to stand without any mission attached. However, pretend for just a sec that you are convinced, beyond all doubt, that Jesus is the way for ever-lasting life. How much would you have to hate someone, not to tell them? I mean, even if I've seen a good offer in Tesco I want to tell people! I think that is why love and mission can go together in an ideal world. In the non-ideal world, Christians get it right, get it wrong, screw it up, try again and manage something somewhere in the middle.

A faith based mission organisation should be sensitive and respectful to local culture and existing beliefs, offering information but not becoming too assertive. Certainly they should make sure their gifts are truly gifts and have no obligation attached. When a faith based group proclaims a message though, naturally this message is going to contradict other faiths.

It's unpopular, seems old-fashioned and it's a sore subject to suggest, but Christians believe that logically, there must be one truth that is true. So, from a Christian perspective, it's not a case of competing with other faiths, like Pizza Hut competes with Pizza Express and Dominoes for faithful customers but it's all pizza at the end of the day. Inherently then, Samaritans Purse would not say that any other faith is correct. But it should love and respect people with other beliefs.

I'm not comfortable with the booklet's certificate at the end, because I think it's pointless. If a child (or adult) chooses to pray or to have a faith, this is likely to be a process of thought and consideration that they will continue to have into adulthood. Writing down a date and time isn't signing up to anything. Christian faith is all about what's going on in the heart and mind, not what's written on paper or whether someone attends a church building.

There certainly should be no implication that Christians are nicer, smarter, 'better than you' etc. The absolute core of Christianity is that Christians are messy, imperpect, ordinary people who screw up and have found a source of grace.

So I think it's not unreasonable to opt out of Operation Christmas Child or to choose a different charity if you want to give a shoebox without giving out the Christian message too.

A couple of years ago when DS2's school ran OCC, enough parents opted out that they agreed to do something different in future.

I wanted them to do Oxfam Unwrapped and collect for a goat or even a loo , because I thought the kids would appreciate the humour as well as the usefulness...

(Sadly though I didn't persuade them!)

YANBU to not join in, That is your choice, however YABVU to attempt to discourage others to so, and incite negative discussion in order to validate your opinion.
The organisation is hardly evil.

By 'incite negative discussion', do you mean 'give people full information about Samaritan's Purse, and the main aims of Operation Christmas Child so they can make up their own minds'? Because that is all the objectors on this thread are trying to do.

My biggest problem with the whole thing is that parents and children are not given all the information they need to decide whether this is an initiative they want to support. Many non-denominational primaries - where the majority of families are not practising Christians, and may be of other religions - take part in OCC, and I think those parents would be shocked and appalled if they discovered their Christmas gifts were being used to promote evangelical goals by an organisation with strong anti-Muslim, anti-gay etc views.

'Incite negative discussion'? What an odd phrase! It's called a debate, isn't it? :)

I am opting out of the OCC shoebox appeal at our DCs' school.

We donate in other ways to other charities.

This year I have forwarded our HT information about OCC and their anti catholic stance (catholic school) and asked that my children be withdrawn from any assemblies about OCC and that they not be given any of the leaflets.

(And yes, before anyone jumps on me about the missionaries the catholic faith sent out years ago and the awful things they did I have a huge problme with that too..... Sometimes I find being a Catholic bloody hard and contradictory but I'm still a Catholic!)

You know what, me and Dcs do a shoe box every year. We go to town and buy lots of new gifts, dds love to buy from Claire's accessories and add sweets, gloves, pens and pads etc.

My Dcs got very excited over the years and it taught them that Christmas is about giving and receiving.

They watch the videos of the children receiving said gifts and the smiles and joy on faces.

We are atheists btw, never had children christened and think all religion is about lies and control.

If you think religion is all about lies and control, why on earth do you still do OCC shoeboxes, when there are non-religious alternatives? Samaritan's Purse does not have a monopoly on giving at Christmas.

It really depends on which shoebox appeal you do. But if it's Operarion Christmas Child run by Samaritan's Purse, you might like to have a look at their own website information, and it may make you think again, because they are all about converting children to Christianity:

"From start to finish, Operation Christmas Child partners with local churches here and overseas as we collect, ship, and hand out shoe box gifts? all for the sake of the Gospel".
(Back page of their own annual report )

Sandwich

Do you have an address for your friends' school in Ghana?
I would be happy to send some things directly to them.

People who are saying "but the child doesn't care about the leaflet" well I DO care. I have no objection to sending a box, at any time of year as a gift, because I can afford some bits and pieces and it would be nice for someone else to have something.

I will also be buying a present for a local child, and probably sending some gifts to my local women's refuge.

Oh and BTW, I don't even celebrate Xmas.

'YANBU to not join in, That is your choice, however YABVU to attempt to discourage others to so, and incite negative discussion in order to validate your opinion.'

OK - so if it's really so very terribly unreasonable to be concerned that other people are being misled into something harmful & missing out on something better, & raise it as a subject for discussion...then by that argument OCC have no justification for their proselytising, no? They could just 'not join in' with Islam, for example, without bunging leaflets at children in Muslim communities.

As to 'The organisation is hardly evil.' - well, I wouldn't use such an absolute adjective, I'm sure many of those directly involved are well-intentioned.

I would describe OCC as corrupt, dishonest & utterly unworthy of charitable status though.

I think it's massively important to discredit these fuckers as much and as widely as possible. OK my starting point is that all religion is bullshit anyway, however the likes of Samaritan's Purse are particularly bad and harmful.
I know some people who just can't be bothered to think things through nad have this vague idea that Christianity can't do much harm. If you grew up with gentle, dull, bumbling CofE-version Christianity, it's understandable to think that way, but there are many brands of Christianity which are realy horrible;racist, sexist, homophobic, advocate beating children, etc etc.

YABU Yes a christian mesage might be attached but it's in a story book form. The children don't have to be from a christian background to recieve the boxes. In fact the boxes are given toany children who are in need,

Our school did Operation Christmas Child last year, and I'm half-way through emailing them to ask them to re-consider this year.

Before I sent the email, I thought I'd better check my facts, so had a quick look at the Samaritans Purse website

www.operationchristmaschild.org.uk/truth-statement

I'm really not sure now! They openly admit they are evangelical, but say this is not a condition for a child to receive a box. I guess we don't really know what goes on at the other end... I feel a bit of a party-pooper complaining to the school, after all whats a few leaflets.

I don't particularly like it, but not sure if its worth getting het-up about...

Aliasjoey - the thing is the boxes are part of the outreach strategy to support the organisation's evangelical goals. So basically the school is asking families to donate money to support an evangelical mission for a particular brand of Christianity . In a non-faith school this is inappropriate, and even in a faith school it should be made explicit what it is for.

The whole business of sending boxes of gifts seems like a nice thing to do, but non-evangelical charities in general don't do this because it is a poor use of resources aimed at appealing to donors rather than the priorities of recipients.

I would suggest they do a collection of money for Oxfam (buy a goat etc..) rather than look for another box sending charity.

Aliasjoey-have a look at the American website-much more evangelical, and also some of the other links I posted a little earlier-I was particularly struck at the link where the workers talked about the unfairness of the scheme, the disparity between the box contents, the fact that not every child got one and that it took time and energy away from the other work being done. We are looking at this from a first world perspective.
I do not like this organisation, I do not like the right wing, bigoted views held by the organisers. I think there are better ways to give and show charity-it is not about making us feel good about ourselves and I feel that many people are being misled by the organisation.

ucskco.sasktelwebhosting.com/TheGiftMattersSchoolkit.pdf
Please have a read of this, I found it fascinating.