AIBU to be surprised how few people know all UK state schools include compulsory Christian worship?

[TheMightyMojoceratops]

The law in England and Wales states that ALL state schools "shall on each school day take part in an act of collective worship... wholly or mainly of a Christian character". All UK state schools have to do this: at least 51% of collective worship - often embedded in assemblies - has to be Christian. And this is worship, as distinct from education.

Yet I quite often see threads on here where people are surprised to find their children are coming home saying things like "we said thanks to God today", or "it makes me sad God died for me"... Christian worship is a legal requirement in school, even if it's one I disagree with. Most people I talk to seem unaware of this and express surprise when it's explained to them.

AIBU to be surprised that more parents aren't aware of this?

I have no issue with my boys doing collective worship. Once a week for half an hour "listening to someone boring drone on about nothing important" (my sons words not mine).

We are not religious as a family, nor indeed individually. The boys have learned to listen to the things they want to and to make their own minds up about what they are being told.

There are so many unsubstantiated things they are taught that RE is nothing different. Truth surely is only as old as the oldest person on earth - anything else is conjecture based on heresay and artefacts isn't it? We can't evidence everything we are taught.

I dont ask or expect my children to accept everything they are told as truth, just that they respect other peoples wishes to believe what they do.

So after all that waffle - I don't think it makes a difference or harms our children to have collective worship :)

Truth surely is only as old as the oldest person on earth - anything else is conjecture based on heresay and artefacts isn't it?
er ,no. That might apply to historical 'truths' but not to scientific facts. Not that its particularly relevant to this discussion.

Ruby - why are you persisting in your assumption that the people who are objecting to collective worship have had their children baptised? Or were married 'under the auspices of the Established church'. There's no evidence for anyone on this thread having done so.

tiggy...'What more would you want apart from the whole nation to abandon its religious values and traditions and be completely secular to save you opting out? ' Don't be silly. Every other western nation seems to manage perfectly well without imposing worship on children in state schools without total collapse of values and traditions. 'Secular' is not anti-religion - it is against religious discrimination and religious privilege.

Yes - many of the original settlers to the US were there to escape persecution by State religion. Secularism protects everyones freedom to worship (or not) as they wish. State religions just prop up a status quo which suits some but not all of the population, giving privelige to a subgroup and discriminating against others. Disestablishing the state religion does not in any way affect peoples freedom to worship (it increases it), it does not tear down traditions which people value. Why are some people so afraid of secularism?

ruby, you can opt out of those bits of the service. FWIW.

I wish state schools were completely secular, although I would like to see all world religions taught in an academic vein. Just not as 'worship'. As an atheist I have strong objections to what I see as a form of indoctrination, but as I lack the resources to home-ed, I have no choice but to accept it. Instead I do my best to counteract it at home.

I was surprised when my kids started school in England. I went to catholic schools so obviously religion was a part of that, I always thought that the ordinary non religious state schools were completely secular and non religious.

I find it utterly offnsive that children are expected to be submitted to acts of daily worship for the following reasons:

1. It posits religion as the path to morality. In fact, using religion as the basis of morality is actively IMmoral, as it seeks to prevent people from forming independent notions and feelings of what is right and wrong, instead telling them that they must base their moral beliefs and actions on the fear of punishment and retribution and the quest for approval from an invisible, paternal figure. That is disgusting.

2. The very act of teaching children about goodness and morality in a religious framework is an outrage, as it unconciousoy implies that you can only be an upstanding member of society by being religious. Religion has got zero to do with morality. Religions include moral teaching as part of their dogma, but they are not the basis of morality.

3. What they are being told are lies. If someone can give me even 1% proof that anything they are taught is real or possible or did actually happen, then I will stop calling it lies. Seeing as no-one has been able to offer this proof in the 2000 yrs since the lies were created, I am incredulous that people find it acceptable to present these as facts or reasonable ideas to gullible children.

4. It is absolutely insane that we are one of the most irreligious nations on Earth, certainly Europe, and yet we do not have a secular society. Most people do think things like religious assemblies or swearing an oath on the
   Bible in court are stupid but CBA to complain or don't want to rock the boat. But the reasons for us keeping things non-secular are bigger than the religious issue: it is just one part of a highly paternalistic system in general that tries to promote and bolster those in privileged postions in our society. The monarchy, class system, the Old Boy network of public schools and Oxbridge, a system which is shit for promoting gender equality (just check out the gazillions threads a week about the problems of WOHMs, etc.) and so on...

As for the immature argument about people celebrating Xmas, then please remember that virtually every aspect of how we celebrate has got zero to do with Christianity: feasting, gifts and decorations: pagan. Xmas trees and cards: Victorian trends. Using the name does not mean we are still involving Jesus in our thinking about the proceedings, anymore than Christians using the word Easter are actually involving the Pagan goddess of Oestre in their view of that holiday.

Grimma I don't assume that, I wondered how many had. It would be interesting to know don't you think?

Please excuse typos, I have arthritis and crap eyesight!

And if you want to celebrate a traditional non-Christian festival at the turn of the year then why not call it something else that doesn't have Christ's name in it?

A festival has been celebrated at that time of the year for thousands of years, if you don't want to be a Christian then celebrate one of the other festivals that occur then just don't call it CHRISTmas

Oxford You're right about the name of Easter, It is annoying, what do you think Christians should call it?

You couldn't possibly erase the Christian references from the whole English language, though, ruby! And why should people? Surely if you don't believe, then to you it is just a quaint reminder of history, that the name refers to a religious figure? No different than a street being called 'St Mary's Street' or something.

Since Christmas was originally a pagan festival hijacked by christians anyone can take part.

I dunno, Ruby: "Christian Hijacking of a Pagan Holiday Because The Natives Refused To Give It Up" doesn't exactly trip off the tongue, does it

I don't think people need to read that much into the names for celebrations. Without getting overly academic, it's all just noises from the mouth and squiggles on the page. Personally, I actually pronounce it Exmas, as in Xmas, or sometimes Yule, although that sounds a bit wanky and I'm not Pagan either.

Me, DH and our friends also call it Winterval, as a nod to the ridiculous bullshit the tabloids have been spreading for years that 'right-on' councils want to rename Christmas as Winterval (a total tabloid invention).

Christmas is now just a word that has little or nothing to do with religion for most people. Once a word's meaning becomes changed from the original for the majority, then you have to go with what the new meaning means for people. Kinda like the most popular meaning of gay being 'homosexual' in most people's mind, not 'happy'.

One of the reasons I don't excuse my DC from 'worship' is because who wants to set their child up as 'the one with odd parents who won't let them take part in x, y, z'? It's practically an invitation to bully. I suspect that's behind most parent's reluctance to excuse their children rather than any form of self-indulgent apathy. And personally I've added my signature and the odd letter to several campaigns to ban religion from schools.

Not ban religion, obviously, as that would be stupid, but ban active worship rather.

The continuance of antidisestablishmentarianism in the UK is probably due to the complexity of unpicking the Church of England from the state, rather than the influence of active supporters of the established church.

"Is it so awful for children to takepart, for few momments a day, in an execrcise that teaches tolarance and kindness to the whole of mankind. Most schools have to learn about cultural diversity and celebrate many different festivals so why exclude Christianity."

I think by asking the question you are completely missing the point. People who object to Christianity being taught to young children in schools generally have no religion and wish their children to have none too. They don't want 'having a religion' to be the default. They want people to have to opt into religious teaching rather than being told that the responsibility is on tehm to opt out of something they never had anyway.

You can teach telerance and kindness without resorting to teaching impressionable children that the myth of god/jesus is true.

"If you object to a broadly Christian act of worship in schools, I presume you also don't ,mark Christmas or Easter in any way in your homes? And also that you didn't marry in a Christian church or have your children baptised?"

Already covered in the other thread but all these festivals are borrowed from pre-christian times anyway. I was married in a register office and neither myself nor my child are christened, why would we be?

"but it really gets my MN Goat (TM) when people want all the trappings of Christianity (carol services, beautiful weddings and a lovely Christening party etc.) And then complain when their children are asked to participate in a wishy-washy watered down act of worship"

this isn't what people are doing. People are objecting to religion and religious teaching being the default in schools. I am without religion, my son is without religion. Why should I accept that someone will get him with religion whether I like it or not?

well said OxfordBags

If you have done/do any of these things: why?

Well said duellingfanjo.People just want to live their lives in a 'religion free'manner. Not to stop other people practicing their choice of religion,just to keep it private [ie their own homes,places of worship and social clubs etc]and away from public life.