AIBU to be surprised how few people know all UK state schools include compulsory Christian worship?

[TheMightyMojoceratops]

The law in England and Wales states that ALL state schools "shall on each school day take part in an act of collective worship... wholly or mainly of a Christian character". All UK state schools have to do this: at least 51% of collective worship - often embedded in assemblies - has to be Christian. And this is worship, as distinct from education.

Yet I quite often see threads on here where people are surprised to find their children are coming home saying things like "we said thanks to God today", or "it makes me sad God died for me"... Christian worship is a legal requirement in school, even if it's one I disagree with. Most people I talk to seem unaware of this and express surprise when it's explained to them.

AIBU to be surprised that more parents aren't aware of this?

It's there in the first place because until relatively recently, the concept of a separation of Church and State wasn't accepted. Until the late 19th century, no-one thought that it was necessary to stop schooling including religious worship. The UK have collective worship because the history of this country is a religious history. The king is actually the head of the Anglican Church, believe it or not. This is because King Henry VIII took the title from the Pope.

It is a very basic part of our history, but IMO it is also something that should be junked now, and not kept up as an active tradition.

Dd has been through the state school system and there has been no sort of 'daily worship' at all. I always assumed there would be and was surprised to find out that at the age of 16 she had never heard the Lord's Prayer, let alone sung any hymns. Most schools don't even have a proper nativity play nowadays so I don't think people need to panic about their dcs being indoctrinated.
Ds's school has 'harvest celebration' this week but it's more about singing songs about scarecrows than anything religious.

NI mum who has been told she has to provide supervision etc if she exercises the right to withdraw, unless your rules are different from the rest of the uk, that isn't true.
you write to the headteacher. you don't have to give a reason. they provide alternatives (they will probably want to call you in to discuss...).

daily worship is in the law, but doesn't usually happen in state schools.

Am mentioned above I recently discovered by chance that my son has strong Christian beliefs - thanks to this worship that occurs at school. He has autism, believes anything anyone tells him, and thinks teachers are the font of all knowledge. I feel he has been tricked into believing in a lie and I have missed the opportunity to discuss alternative views with him as I had no idea it was happening. If I had known we could have had chats about people believing different things. He was as aghast that I don't believe as I was that he does!

I don't know why people are using the fact that they are atheist and had worship when young to argue that it shouldn't stop. It is not just about indoctrination. It is a waste of time. If my child is in school they should be learning. Not parroting words that are meaningless to me/them.

Just to be clear I have no issue with people having faith and no issue with learning about faith. I have an issue with my child having to worship. And, it is the law so just because your school isn't doing it, doesn't mean they won't ever and doesn't mean at any point the State couldn't intervene and make them.

LRD I thought I was being clear that I was addressing those on this thread who can see no reason to change

And, frankly, if there are so many Christians who agree that this enforced worship in schools should stop, they are being remarkably quiet about it. As usual.

Well I can only speak for myself, but as a Christian I really don't care if the school has a daily act of worship.
Mainly because I know my DS's school don't conduct a daily act of worship- it would appear they have better things to do with their time, something I'm grateful for.
The school does take the children to a local church for an Easter, Christmas and end of year service.
DS seems to have escaped any trauma with this appalling indoctrination and only relates who got into trouble for talking during the service.

Yes I knew but I also know many schools get round this ludicrously anachronistic idea by focusing on Christian principles rather than beliefs and dogma. Eg do unto others as you would be done by, live the best life you can, inclusion and tolerance etc instead of the Holy trinity, the resurrection etc.

I have no issues with those messages. In fact I wish all Christians felt the same (the anti-gay, anti-other denominations, anti-other faiths, anti-secularism lots I'm thinking of YOU)

YABU because its such a bizzare anachronism, which no other western democracy does in its state schools - why would anyone expect this still to be happening in the 21st century?

For those of you who want to do something towards changing the status quo (in addition to moaning which is our unalienable right as MNers) - you might like to join one of the following who campaign on this issue:

The Accord Coalition - this will probably suit religious people who think its time to change the law - this group specifically works on faith in education problems

The National Secular Society - secular doesn't mean 'atheist', its about separation of church and state.

British Humanist Association - campaigns from the humanist standpoint. (has some good info).

Finally, for those that are interested here is the official guidelines on Collective Worship. (the parts on RE were updated in 2010 apparently)

I think one of the ms alarming things is how a school can change. So, yes, you might find a school that flouts the law. Nothing to stop them suddenly starting to pray three times a day and you are relyng on your child to tell you if tgat happens.

This is not on.

It's not so much the indoctrination. Dd believes in god, fair enough. Her beliefs are up to her. I'd be much mire alarmed if she turned Tory.

It's the principle. Religion is a private thing. You should not have to pretend to believe, and be taught as fact, religious teachings in order to fully access a public service.

This is a key reason why we are starting HE. The only school with places is Catholic, so no option to withdraw from religious instruction as it is throughout the school. All other schools within 30 minutes travel are full.

No problem with religion, not even a problem with families having the option f a religious school particularly. It should be an option though. Default should be secular.

Yes, a secular society. I hear and read that that is working out really well for the US.

The USA as a secular society? There is no official state religion it's true but they are not a secular society by any stretch of the imagination. Same with Russia.

As far as I know, Britain is still a Christian country,is it not? So why shouldn't worship be part of day to day/ week to week life?

Other kids who didn't believe such as myself and those of different religions didn't pray at the end of assembly. It general assembly was a moral message in the broad sense. I still remember my head of school reading out the lyrics to Mad World and laugh

Regardless of anyone's personal beliefs...

V surprised that not only are they suprised that there is collective worship in schools but also v surprised that people are surprised that we are a Christian country... The queen is not only head of state but head of the established church...

Everytime we sing the national anthem "God save our queen" we are effectively singing a hymn.
The whole judiciary, school system, holiday pattern etc is based on the fact that this is broadly a Christian country...
As i say, regardless on anyone's belief, didn't people study any history?

What Nonno said basically.

crikey - no, TBH, it wasn't clear. Seeing as you just addressed 'Christians'. And now you are saying they're being 'quiet' about the issue ... erm, why is it their responsibility and not yours to make a fuss?

It surprises me. We are a Christian country - the Queen is Head of State and Church- people don't come across it until their DC goes to school.
Most people are entirely ignorant about the history of Education- they have no idea why we have so many church schools, why many village schools are church schools or what happened in 1870, or the education acts of 1988 and 1998 with reference to collective worship. They have no idea of what the Head is obliged to do and the fact that they break the law if they don't comply.
I used to say, why is it such a surprise- you must have had hymns and prayers at school but it appears that some schools were able to avoid it before 1988- especially in 1970s when things were very lax and there was no Ofsted to check.
For some reason, maybe they think everyone knows, the Head never explains.
It turns up time after time on MN and I doubt whether anyone does anything constructive.Moaning on MN is useless - people will still be posting on the subject next week, next month ,next year saying they send their DC to a secular school, when it isn't a possibility. I wonder if some people know what non denominational means. If your DC never talks about assembly it is possible that the parent has no idea.

Maybe the fault is that so much is spoken about church schools as if they are different. There is very little difference in reality. Church schools will have more to do with the vicar and go to church, but not always, and non church schools may do both! A lot depends on the Head.

No- it means State and church are one.

I'm not sure I can spell it but you need dis establishmentarianism if it is not to be a Christian country. It still would be historically and culturally.

I don't think most people are active Christians, but nearly three-quarters of people who answered the religion question on the 2001 census put down Christian. I didn't know (just googled), but apparently in 1851 the question about religion wasn't compulsory and was on a separate bit of paper - it's only in 2001 the question was made part of the main census. I thought that was interesting - I thought it'd be the other way around.

But I suspect what people mean when they say 'we are a Christian country' is 'I like tradition, don't rock the boat!'

I find it horribly irritating that our acting head insists on mentioning god in assembly. Previously, the only time god was maentioned was when singing the odd hymn or christmas carol.
I am a firm believer that children should not be led to be one thing or the other,as far as religion is concerned, until they are able to make up their own minds. As I have done with my own children.
As a result, they are very good at debating during RE (or Philosophy and Ethics lessons as they are now called) at their school.

We are culturally christian in this country . That doesn't mean we all believe in a christiian god or otherwise.