to not understand how peiple afford to live?

[pregnantpause]

I'm so fed up ATM. Me and dh work, me part time, as young dc, we live in a very cheap area if the country (and I suppose our wages reflect that), jointly we bring home under 26 thousand pa). We get 40 a month tax credits, which doesn't seem much, and I've just got a letter to say they've over paid us by 200 in the last year. HOW? Forty quid a month, and that's overpaid? How do people survive? Paying that back will take us into overdraft ans furture payments will now be around twenty quid less? Are we the scroungers everyone talks about? Am I the lazy feclkless parent that won't get a full time .job and sponges off the state? I can't go full time, my employer has no hours to give. Dh can't get a better paid job- there are none. With energy bills going up and food costing the earth how do people live. I seriously worry that people with even a little bit less than me will be pushed over the edge, old people, disabled people, how can people afford to survive now? Aibu to think that it won't be long (or already happening) before people are made homeless, just because the cost I'd living is so far apart from what we earn?

I'm surprised there weren't any riots this summer. I blame the rain.

Retraining is just another 'personal responsibility' fob off designed to convince the world that being poor is always and only the poor person's fault and that there is no failing infrastructure, no exploitative corporate class, no global downturn. Etc etc

I tell you my experience with the tax credits. I lost my job of almost 5 years, and tax credits awarded my family with £26 per month (YES £26!!!!!), because I had my wage for the first 5 months of the tax year, nevermind I will have nothing for the rest............ When my JSA got approved, they told me I had to call Tax Credits, and they even cut that figure lower . Apparently JSA (contribution based, so £71 per week) is a taxable income honestly!!!!! I got gobsmacked, I think I did not blink for a long long while.

Oh yes agree re men's work, the problem is can you handle doing it...

I've worked in banks and law offices and just couldn't stand all the machismo and political nonsense involved in basically just pushing other people's money around for profit. I ran screaming into the 'women's sector' of education as a result and I don't regret it but god knows I may come to!

This is because being poor or even on a 'middle' income is being redefined as a moral failing. A great big massive smokescreen for the creation of a scared and indigent 'competitive' population.

I also think this too. I'm really not sure about the housing market, the bottom could fall out of it. It's amazing how many people are in denial about what's happening in the UK. I don't want to be at the bottom or top either. I am far from rich, but I am also in a fortunate position in some ways. I think people need to keep an eye on the news and try to read between the lines so to speak.

People think their lives and jobs are bullet proof, but shit happens and it can happen to anyone. I think there will be plenty of people who are going to be mightily pissed off when they lose their jobs, split up with partners, become ill or become disabled or have disabled children.

The riots had fuck all to do with politics and need, they were about greed. Not greed for food or shelter, greed for consumer goods.

When did people start thinking that their living standards are the hosts responsibility? So you can't afford to retrain, so what, if you want to change career then that is your responsibility no one else's. When did people start thinking that the govt should top up their income. Relative poverty will lways be there even if everyone's income doubled overnight.

The state is there to provide a safety net IMO and there would be a lot more money available to support carers and the disabled, if we stopped trying to use the state to top up people's income.

Netguru hasn't grasped that the tories don't want women to work. So the whole concept of wimmins jobs will be moot. We'll all be taking in mending for our betters before long.

We are now in the hideous position of having a vast client state, few of whom seem to realise that their funding has to come from somewhere. When people say live within your means they mean what you actually earn, not what you earn plus state top ups. People now leave marriages that are not simply abusive but merely unsatisfactory and expect the state to support two households.

I would love nothing more than to retrain ...... but, right now, for what exactly ? Is there any sector in the UK where jobs remain unfilled and so more workers trained in that particular area are actually needed ?

Notwithstanding that rather basic consideration, I can't afford to retrain, in many different ways. It's not just the direct cost - though we have no spare income, and can't afford to service a loan (for example). It's also the fact we can't afford for me to stop doing the job I'm currently doing as every last £ is genuinely needed for essentials. It's also the cost of travelling to wherever this retraining is taking place, plus books and/or equipment, as necessary. And then, the almost inevitable additional expense of childcare. Just can't be done. You feel trapped, frustrated and useless and keep thinking you must surely somehow be missing something ..... but years of budgeting, being frugal etc etc show that you're not. We can't cut back in any meaningful way in order to afford retraining ... and the only areas we can cut back on is on good old food and fuel - heat or eat. Eat less, eat lesser quality and so on.

We haven't been on holiday for 5.5 years, run an ancient car (which is a necessity unfortunately), live in a house which we can't afford to maintain, never mind decorate and make it into a nice home. Haven't been to a hairdressers in more than 2 years. I could go on - but I'm sure most of you know what I mean. Scared to go to the dentist 'cos of the expense, wear glasses with an old prescription etc. And 1001 other examples which make you feel you exist rather than live. It's so soul destroying.

Given the current climate I was delighted and proud when my son got a FT job after leaving school. Compared to many his age he's really lucky. Unfortunately, as a police officer, him and his colleagues will be in the front line when further rioting occurs - even though feasibly many of them will also be struggling in similar ways to those protesting - who are just as likely to be working full time too. And likely to be exposed to more desperate and/or violent crime when people crack. It's a disgrace that it's impossible to live in most areas of the UK on even an average wage - or higher. But I don't know what the answer is. Sorry to be so morbid but I really do think we are going to see a big increase in suicide rates in the coming years.

London- but the problem is that although living costs have risen wages haven't. So effectively what people are getting paid isn't enough anymore. As someone else pointed out- the lady that serves you in Sainsburys has to eat as well. Someone gas to serve you, we can't all aspire to riches as someone has to do the menial work. Or should we start paying people a living wage in the first place to avoid the necessity of 'top ups'

recently i was living on benefits i got rent all but £50 a month and council tax paid, income after that was £230 a month to pay my gas, electric, water rates, television licence, somehow i did it, i now work so i get with working tax credits about £950- £1000 a month, outgoings £746 a month because i have to find rent and council tax so now have £210 a month left over after all the main bills are paid, so basically i am working 40 hours a week for the same budget i had when not working, so i can understand how parents who are working are struggling to bring up thier children im single and couldnt live on my wages if i had kids at home

Catsmother- so your life isn't as nice asyiu want it to be. Why is that the state's problem?

I think many, many people are struggling, and these kinds of threads are helpful because they help us realise we are not the only ones in such a crap situation.

After tax, nic and student loan deductions, we take home about 30k between us (some of that is childcare vouchers in my husband's pay, and the profit I make from my mileage payments so that bit varies but does cover the complete upkeep of my vehicle from tax to fuel to mot...).

My husband does overtime when there is a lot of work on. (loads coming up). I work 4 days a week term time only (not as a teacher, although trained as one), and I am looking for full time jobs as my job is losing its funding soon and my little girl will get her 15 hours funding next year. So we are coping by making money where we can, selling stuff we can really do without, and accepting we are going to have to cut some things that we don't want to cut. I also work in a job that allows me to see the true poverty people are in and it helps me (awful I know) to appreciate that I'm not actually in the dire straits I seem to think we are! If my little girl lost her coat tomorrow, I could afford to buy her a new one; the amount of children I meet without appropriate clothing, food etc... it's heartbreaking, and the reason is usually severe hardship.

Out of our income, comes 7275 a year on the mortgage (fixed rate for 5 years - wish we'd gone tracker but risk averse husband), and 6475 on childcare. There are things we could cut, but I don't want to have to cut everything as life just starts to get a bit of a piddletake otherwise, so it's a balance.

We don't get tax credits. We should get £20 a month. But I can't be bothered, after all the hassle it caused this summer!

londonone You BET it's the state's problem when she can stay at home for the SAME MONEY as going to work.

The state is supporting her either way - when she's "on the dole" she's getting a handout - and when she's working she's getting a handout.

Give you probably contribute to "the state" and as you so rightly pointed out the level of handout is not sustainable, what are you going to do?

Carrie I'd love not to take the tc, as they are such a hassle, they pay for our life/critical illness insurance, which is a luxury I couldn't afford without the ctc, and an outgoing I would be scared to lose in case the worst happened. What will happen do you think, to those poor people without the means to clothe their child, in 6 months time when things will be worse.

I'm staggered London that you don't think that children going cold and hungry is 'the states problem', they should suffer for the crime if being born poor.

catsmother: "Is there any sector in the UK where jobs remain unfilled and so more workers trained in that particular area are actually needed?"

If you find such a field, please let me know!

I'm new to the UK, but I just wanted to say that even in my field, physics, there are very few jobs in the UK, and it's not much better in the US, either. I have numerous friends with PhDs in maths, physics, or engineering who are unable to find permanent work. This despite being told by politicians that we need more students going into maths and hard sciences (the so-called STEM fields).

I searched high and low for physics jobs in the UK, and all I came across were some teaching/tutoring positions (and not a lot of them, and they were all relatively low-paying), a few adverts for software engineers (writing code is pretty much the back-up plan for all theoretical physicists), and one position at an actual company that involved doing real physics (though it was more of an engineering job than physics job...yes, I did apply for that one). That's it. I have a Masters degree in physics, and I can't find employment.

In my case, I have the opportunity to finish a PhD in physics or maths (both would come with a small stipend, so I would technically earn a little income while doing the PhD), but I feel like it just delays the inevitable.

Dolomites - stop the handouts !

The thing is, I don't think the property market will crash. Not all of it, anyway.

The "rich" who put down a 30% deposit to get the most favourable mortgage rate on their £700k house will be able to 'afford' to sit out a 30% fall in property prices.

Those who mortgaged themselves to the hilt to afford the most basic accommodation won't be able to do that.

Houses at the bottom end of the market will see their values plummet. Houses at the top of the market will simply stagnate in price because, by and large, no-one will move.

Regarding wages: In the U.S. the minimum wage is about £4.55, less than the minimum age in the UK. And since the US doesn't have nationalized health care, people earning that minimum wage are expected to pay for health care out of their own pockets.

Pregnantpause- it's not for the state to pay for your bloody insurance. As you say it is a LUXURY you CAN'T afford.

Actually vintage you could find employment but you choose not to as it is either too low paid I.e teaching or you don't fancy it I.e software engineers. Guess what, not everybody gets their dream job.

£26,000 a year - your practically rich!

I work 14 hours a week (I've applied for hundreds of jobs and thats the best I could get and haven't stopped looking / applying). I earn too much to get help via income support and not enough hours to get working tax credits. I am not entitled to any help with housing or council tax. I am a single parent to two children but only get child benefit and child tax credit for one. If it wasn't for the generosity of family meeting the shortfall in my rent and putting fuel in my car so that I can actually get to my place of work and a few other bits I would be homeless, yet I fear that if I manage to get more hours I will still be no better off as my youngest is not of school age and nursery even with a government contribution is not cheap. Council tax will likely do an attachment of earnings anytime now which will leave me with even less money whilst still incurring further debt with them and my gas and electric are talking about disconnecting me.

Consider yourself one of the lucky ones.

London, who said my coding skills were good enough? If they were good enough, I would have applied.

At this point, I'm either going to go into medical physics, go back to accounting, or get the math PhD.

So actually you have plenty of options

London: I just don't have many options at this moment that use the purportedly valuable physics degree that I have now. The med physics thing would be a new degree program and would cost us about £16,000 to pursue; fortunately, we have that in savings.

I'm curious, London, what's your field? Are you in science or engineering, too?