to say DD can't stay with her father for an extra night, and to refuse to ring him to discuss it?

[QueenOfFlamingEffigies]

There is lots of background to this (7 years worth [rolleyes]) but I will try and keep it to the bare bones and avoid drip feeding.

DD is 9. Her father walked out on us when she was 2, and has made very little effort to stay involved in her life since then. He refuses to speak to me (he's a bit strange like that - he has 3 DC by 3 women and won't speak to any of the mothers )

After years of difficulties, we have come to the current situation, which is that I arrange by text and email with his parents (who he lives with) when DD will visit them. As I now live about 100 miles from them, I take DD to my parents house which is about halfway, and the GPs collect her from there. This has been working fine for the last couple of years.

For this half term, I asked his parents a month in advance if they would like DD to visit and explained that it could be for no more than 4 days as I had some things I wanted to do with her as well. They sent a reply saying "Yes great, our car is in the garage on 24th so how is sat 20th to tue 23rd" to which I agreed. I've heard no more since then apart from to confirm collection time.

They came to collect her from my parent's yesterday, and GM asked my mum (I'd had to go before they arrived) if DD could stay an extra couple of nights as they didn't feel they were having her for long enough and that it wasn't really 4 days when you took travelling time into consideration. My mum said it wasn't up to her and told them to talk to me about it. I then get a text from GF saying "[EX] want's to discuss [DD's] visit with you, please can you ring him about it"

I sent a message back pointing out that I can't ring Ex as he refuses to give me his mobile number and that I wasn't prepared to change the days now as it was too short notice. Since then I have had 4 texts from GF's phone, firstly asking me to ring on that number (why the fuck could he not just ring me then??), followed by three messages giving me DD's father's number and repeating the request that I ring him.

I think this is Not On for several reasons - DD is going for the days that THEY ASKED FOR for a start, and if Ex wants to be involved in the arrangements he should do so when they are being bloody well made. I refuse to be drawn into discussion about extra days at this stage. He also can bugger off texting demands that I ring him. He can ring me himself if he suddenly feels the need to get involved. That's not unreasonable, right?

I think you should ask for your daughter to be returned on the agreed date and say you have made plans for that time.
I think that 9 is too young to be dragged into this sort of adult power game. Yes her views should be discussed before arrangements were made (although age 9 if my kids had said they just wanted to see their dad once a year, or every weekend they would have been told that wasn't happening unless there were abuse concerns, I do think children don't know what is best for them long term and should be treated as children with access discussions with the adults making the main decisions).
Once the arrangements are made there should not be last minute changes to them unless there is an emergency or something unexpected.
Nothing unexpected has happened here.
My ex and I have managed over 10 years of access and changeovers with no arguments mainly because we agree stuff in advance and then stick to it. We don't mess each other around at the last minute.
Now the kids are teenagers they have more say in where they go and things are decided later. The kids have to learn to stick to decisions once made as well and not mess us about (we will be flexible for last minute parties etc but not every teenage whim, we have lives as well)

NADM - I do now have the number. I am loath to call as I dislike being told to do so in the way described

They won't refuse to bring her back, I am pretty certain of that. The GF does the collecting/dropping off (Ex doesn't drive and public transport is beneath him) and he is reliable. But I could go and get her myself, and they know that.

Much as it sticks in your throat, be the bigger person, make the call and sort it out - it won't be half as bad as you imagine, honest

Just ring them. Yes they are being unreasonable but you have to be the bigger person for your daughter's sake.

DO NOT change your plans. It's outragoues to suggest that you should and the idea of making your daughter choose between you all is nuts. Make it clear that you are happy to organise a longer stay when you don't already have plans made.

I was once a child put in that position and it caused me a great deal of stress becuase I didn't know what the correct answer was supposed to be. If I said 'I want to stay an extra day with daddy' then daddy was happy and mummy was upset and then gave me the silent treatment when I got home. If I said 'I'd like to go home' then mummy was happy but daddy got all huffy.
Now I'm not saying the OP will be like my mum - I doubt that entirely as she is asking for opinions on this which shows she is thinking abut her DD - but to put a child in that sort of position is supremely unfair. She's 9.
OP is the grown up and the arrangement has been made and should be stck to.

"I think that 9 is too young to be dragged into this sort of adult power game."

So do I. That's why I'm saying ring her, ask her what she would like to do and do that.

Op- you're not going to tell me she hasn't got a phone, are you...........?

seeker when my 9 year old arrived in possession of a mobile phone given to her by her Dad, it got removed from her until she went back to her Dads house - she had no need for a phone of her own while in my home.

A 9 year old should not be making last minute decisions about holiday plans.
I don't phone my kids when they are with their dad for the week to ask them if they want to change their mind and stay with me for the rest of the week and he doesn't do that to me. Plus kids are often happy where they are and reluctant to change venues.
Phoning the child is dragging her into a power game. The parents had an agreement, there is no reason to change it. The father can sort out more time with his daughter or seeing her more frequently for future visits. Deciding during time with your child that you enjoy having them there and don't want to let them go to the other parent is behaving like a child yourself.
The OP has plans for the rest of the holiday.

Absolutely, notadisneymum. But IMHO it would be irresponsible to put a child into the communication black hole the OP describes without a phone.

If your dd wants to stay, I would be inclined to let her. My dd is 9 & she is capable of making that decision. I would say though, that in future you need more notice of changes they want to make as it messes up your plans & takes a lot of sorting (I.e having to ring your dd to see what she wants to do etc) & also puts you & her on the spot.

I would try to be flexible as I think that works in your favour too, in case you need to ask them to have her a few hours/a day longer. You don't know when that might happen & they will be more inclined to help you (I hope)

Of course, if you have tickets for something, just say so & say that perhaps next time she could stay longer. In the grand scheme of things, she doesn't get to spend a lot of time with them (not blaming anyone, have no idea how it is worked out) perhaps she might welcome an extra day.

Also, I don't think it matters what arrangements he has with his other children, you should only decide on these like this on their merits. Perhaps his parents are making sure your dd gets to see him & vice versa BECAUSE of that.

Well in that case I am irresponsible, because she doesn't have a mobile. The agreement between the GPs and me is that they are responsible for DD when she visits. I am able to contact the GPs by phone if I need to, and DD can (and in the past has) used their phone to ring me when she is there.

I kind of think it is a relevant detail about Ex's other DC as it explains more about exactly what I am dealing with. Obviously it is nothing to do with my own DD's contact with him, but it builds a background picture for anyone who might otherwise think he is being harshly treated or that I have no reason to doubt his desire to have any involvement with his DCs.

Gawd, what a pita he sounds. I would probably allow it, though. My DD stopped wanting to see her Dad in favour of friends at about 13 which is pretty common and she should probably be allowed to spend as much time with him as poss while she can still wants to. Why don't you arrange something lovely for yourself instead as you deserve it for being so kind to her Dad even though he is such a knobber and such a great Mum

queen I don't think your irresponsible at all - the fact that you trust your DD's GP to do the right thing, stay in touch and ensure your DD speaks to you whiles she is there is a testament to your commitment to keep her out of the tension between you and her Dad.
It also explains why you're so pissed off about the issues around visit - it sounds like the texts from your DDs GF are out of character?

For what my opinion is worth, I think the OP is playing a straight bat to some fairly tricky balls and doing it well.

I nodded rather vigorously to "I'm not making her responsible for whether or not her father's twattiness gets results. In the long run, I feel it is best if he doesn't manage to control me like this".

Carry on, OP.

I would just say that you're sorry but you already have something else arranged and that youcant change the plans at such a late stage.

Keep it short, polite and non confrontational. It is probably best in the long run.

I don't think he is being harshly treated. I think he sounds like a dick.

Oops, sorry. I hadn't read all the post befor posting and now see that OP has sent polite text.

Hope it works out ok.

OP you have clearly decided that your DD should return from her visit on Tuesday as planned and agreed between you and the people who have agreed to take responsibility for her well-being.

You are right not to involve her in the adult politics. She is too young and needs to know that you will take responsibility for making these decisions. The pressure of being stuck in the middle would be horrible for her. Even if she is angry with yo for insisting that she comes home as arranged you are still doing the right thing.

You are also right to expect that arrangements made in advance will remain stable to that you and your DD feel secure in continuing the visits and can make plans to enjoy some of the holidays together.

If you allow your ex to get his parents to chop and change these arrangements you setting a precedent for them to be flexible on every visit. This could soon develop into your ex or the GPs enticing her to stay longer with treats, thereby turning the constructive relationship you have now into a manipulative, confrontational one.

In your shoes I would have done what you are doing and calmly and politely stuck to my guns, saying that it is too late to change the plans.

You could contact the GPs and ask them whether they are still prepared to be responsible for your DD during visits or if this has now changed. If they are saying you need to discuss arrangements with your ex does this mean he will be making them in the future?

If they are still adamant that you need to talk to him I would agree to do so once your DD is home. Then phone him and ask him if he is proposing to make changes in how the visits are organised in the future. Be calm and polite again and suggest that he emails any proposed future arrangements to you and that you will consider them and get back to him.

Don't get drawn into a debate with anyone about extending this visit while she is still with them.

In all fairness to the OP, this was the question she asked
"He can ring me himself if he suddenly feels the need to get involved. That's not unreasonable, right?"

WRT the rest of the OP, I don't think you are being unreasonable. the GPs chose the dates they wanted to have DD, and now wish to change it. Put the boot on the other foot, mother decides GPs can have DD from Sun to Wed, mother then decides she wants to do something on the Sunday with DD and so asks the GPs if they can have her for 1 less day...

They made their choice (To suit them and fit in with their plans), they must stick to those days, just like I am sure, they would expect the OP to stick the agreed arrangements

The OP is absolutely correct not to change her plans just because of a last minute whim of her ex and the gps.

They chose when they were to see their daughter/grandaughter the op agreed and everyone was happy.

At this point as far as I am concerned her DD should be blissfully unaware of the situation and that is the way it should remain.

The only thing I would do differently to the OP is that I would make the call and have a friendly chat, explain that you would be more than happy to talk about longer stays in the future but that you just can't do it at such short notice.

On this occasion OP, stick to your guns and tell them to bring her back on Tuesday as planned. When you meet the GF for handover, ask him why it was brought up in the way it was and why they practically demanded you ring your ex. Tell him if the ex wants to speak to you he can ring you, and you won't be ordered around. If they want her to stay longer it needs to be arranged in advance, because you're entitled to quality time with your DD in the school holidays too.

Your DDs dad sounds like a pathetic arse, OP. A grown man with three children, two of whom he doesn't see, and he refuses to speak to their mothers? What a joke.

I'm surprised you let her go at all based on the fact that he's clearly a non-communicative man-child who lives with mummy and daddy, won't learn to drive or make the effort to use public transport to get to see his children, and all he does is laze around all day using illegal substances (in his parents' house?!). In my eyes he is not a good example to your DD. Does he work and contribute financially to her upbringing?

I know that being a bad example to children is not enough reason to keep them away from the other parent but he clearly doesn't care about her. If he did he'd get off his lazy arse and not leave all the arrangements and ferrying around to you/his parents. What does she tell you about her visits? Does her dad do things with her and give her attention, or is it all down to the GPs because he's in a drug-addled stupor?

You have already done exactly what I would have done in your situation OP. I also would not have rung but texted back saying sorry but it is too short notice I'm afraid. If you would like a more detailed reason please don't hesitate to give me a call. Imo you have handled everything in a very polite and diplomatic way and anyone accusing you of using your child as a weapon clearly hasn't read all of the details in your posts.
You are also correct not to ask your daughter. (and not to give her a phone)!

Queen, I have a lot of sympathy and some experience of a similar situation: when DS1 was young, his father moved 100 miles away, and though I didn't drive and he did, for some reason I had to take DS there, or contact didn't happen. On the rare occasions he came up here, he almost always changed arrangements at the last minute - not negotiating but just telling me - and cancelling or turning up 24 hours late, for instance.

You will make your own call in this situation of course, but here are my thoughts:

One thing you've said jumps out at me: "I feel it is best if he doesn't manage to control me like this"... I know that feeling very well. But you need to disentangle your feelings around this. He can only control you if you let yourself be controlled. Changing the plan now doesn't necessarily mean he's controlling you, if your daughter would like to stay an extra day, and if you can make it work for you too (I like FizzyLaces's idea of doing something lovely for yourself! :) ) In fact, if you determinedly stick to an existing plan when your natural instinct would be to be helpful and flexible, then this could be you allowing yourself to be controlled :( When I had decisions like this to make, I found it useful to take my Ex out of the equation, and think "What would I do if it was my friend asking, not my Ex?" and then do that - and that way I was being true to myself :)

Also, be aware that if you say 'no', your Ex and/or GPs will probably use that against you, saying things to your DD like "We wanted you to stay with us and have X treat, but mummy wouldn't let you". This doesn't mean you should give in to whatever they suggest (that would be being controlled) but IMO it does mean you need to be talking directly to your daughter. If you are saying no, she needs to understand from you why that is, not from them.

OP, in your situation I would be doing exactly what you are doing

Don't let people fuck you around. You have got to the point (after 7 years...) where it works for you

keep it that way

i would totally stick to the existing arrangements but i dont' see what the problem is in calling the grandfather to confirm that's what you'll be doing?

texting somebody to say 'call me' is a bit odd, but he might just want to ensure you can phone at your convenience and not when driving or in a shop or whatever - some people don't like calling mobiles incase they intrude.

just call him, say 'yes, sorry but we have to stick to arrangement made as i've now made other plans for DD and myself on the other days'..