to not understand the words "I'm not a feminist"?

[bushymcbush]

I've seen this countless times on MN and I really don't get it.

Actually I've heard it quite a few times in RL too.

So, to those of you who are so keen to communicate your non-feminist standing, could you please explain to me which part of 'total equality between the sexes' you disagree with?

Alternatively, you could (gently) explain to me which part of that generic description of feminism I seem to have misunderstood?

Isn't that a bit cutting off your nose to spite your face?

What sort of views do you mean and do you have an idea of how rare/commonly held they are?

Wouldn't the feminist movement be stronger if women stopped distancing themselves from it on the basis of a small number of non-specific views (that are vaguely referred to as extreme but rarely actually defined or described)?

"Although TBH comparing feminists to people who think that homosexuality is an illness ain't great either."

Not comparing feminists, comparing the more extreme feminists.

"Is there really any need to paint these views as nutty/offensive/alienating/violent extremism?"

Because we're talking about the extreme views, yes.

"unless one gives an actual real commonly held example of such a view and argues why it is so nutty/offensive/alienating"

If it was commonly held then it wouldn't be extreme.

Will say again, agree with the core beliefs of feminism, disagree with the extreme views held by some feminists.

Still fighting for equality, just not using a label.

Still very interested to hear why it matters?

"Isn't that a bit cutting off your nose to spite your face?"

Why? What are we losing by not calling ourselves feminists?

I'm very bemused by the idea that a woman would support feminist tenets/ideology etc but not want to openly support the movement because she is worried that people will associate her with a tiny number of extremists.

I suspect that a lot of the extremist stuff is just stereotyping and feminist bashing anyway. Seems a bit odd to buy into it/comply with it against a movement that you actually support.

Can't quite get my head round the point of that.

What does openly supporting the movement involve?

Do I get a badge?

Or am I alright to carry on living a life that promotes equality for women in a real and practical sense whilst prefering not be labeled and not liking a label that (to me anyway) separates out people by their sex which has never struck me as a good starting point for promoting equality for all?

Well that's your choice. Personally I just find it easier.

Let's face it, the majority of the time I don't need to say what I identify as. So for the few times where it is expected/asked I find it easier to say I want equality rather than saying, "I'm a feminist but don't believe x, y and z".

I can't get my head round why anyone thinks the label is actually the important bit.

Why? What are we losing by not calling ourselves feminists?

Solidarity.

And the weight it gives a movement.

I find it odd to focus on a tiny number of 'extremists' and distance oneself from a movement one believes in/issues one is personally affected by.

It all depends on the context as well.

I am a feminist because I support equality for women and challenge sexism

However, I don't identify as a feminist first and foremost as I find it far too narrow a label and my desire for equality and dislike of discrimination goes far beyond that directed at or denied to women

I don't feel I need solidarity. I have solidarity from many other areas of my life.

As for giving the movement weight, I am tackling inequality whenever I can, why do I need to do it as part of a movement?

Feminism will stop being a political movement with any kudos or power at all if women distance themselves from it because they are afraid of being associated with a stereotype or very fringe views.

Easy win that would be for male dominated society.

First paragraph, not my problem

Easy win? Why? You think that only those who identify as feminists will stand up against a sexist society?

This is just basic politics people.

Lots of individuals struggling away as individuals to challenge the oppression of a group is less effective than those individuals joining voices and forces.

This is why marches, campaigns etc. are common political tools.

If we march on our own nobody notices or cares. Marching as a group with a common theme is much more powerful and forceful.

Of course that doesn't stop anyone going about their individual struggle too - it all adds up.

You do know we can march/campaign/etc without calling ourselves feminists don't you? We are allowed to work with feminists aren't we? Or do we need to be part of the club in order to join in with the marches and campaigns? Are there badges and a uniform?

It is so obvious.

"Eeeww you're not one of those mad loony extremist feminists I hope?"

answer a) "Oh god no! Not me."

answer b) "Feminists are neither mad nor extremist - they want equal rights and justice for women."

I think a) is likely to be less challenging of male dominated society than b) myself.

Please can someone tell me what definition of feminism they are working from? Is there more than one?

I would say B

smashing I think it's more along the lines of

• Are you a feminist?
• I believe in equality for everyone

and then on to whatever the conversation was about

Or

• Are you a feminist?
• Yes
• Oh so you think x?
• No, I don't
• Well what about Y?
• No
• Well I know feminists who think z?
• Well I don't

and then maybe we'll actually get around to the conversation we were having, or maybe we'll just go off on that tangent for a while and never actually achieve anything more than a discussion on what feminism is or isn't

Or

• Are you a feminist?
• Yes
• But you do x?
• Yes
• Well then you can't be a feminist?
• Why not? I think the sexes should be treated equally?
• Yes but by doing x you are bowing down to the patriachy and are therefore anti-feminist
• I'm really not, I agree with the core values
• I bet you think Y as well
• Yes, but I'm still a feminist
• No, you're not, you've been brainwashed by the patriachy

and so on and so forth

I'm sure you're now going to tell me that those examples would never ever happen though.

That's right Smashing.

But you forgot that, when answering a) we would, of course, giggle, flick our hair and make the man a sandwich

I would answer

c) I am a feminist, if by that you mean I support equality for women and find sexism to be an unacceptable form of discrimination. However, I want equality for all people, not just women. I am not sure what you mean by "extremist feminist" but I do not consider myself to hold extremist views, no. Perhaps, you could expand on what you mean by that?

I do hold some extreme views cat. Red wine must be French, gin must be Gordens. Would rather go without if not. In terms of feminism, I would like to have one weeks editorship at Heat magazine. They really seem to hate the 99.999% of people who buy their rag. I would make sure the building was empty and then fill it with (non branded) custard, right up to the roof.

but what about Barolo? That's yummy....surely you could make an exception

I tell you what does get my hackles rising......girls toys. I went round ToysRUs with DH recently and we were both greatful DS is a boy due to the utter horror of the pink plastic tat and bratz dolls on offer for the girls :(

Since when was feminism defined as believing in equality for everyone?

Seriously. We should be allowed to say that we fight for women's rights without having to reassure the world that we are intent on looking after absolutely everyone. It is too big an ask IMO for feminists to have to take all the world's injustices on board in order to be allowed to challenge female oppression.

It isn't

Hence me not identfiying as a feminist first and foremost.

FFS

"Since when was feminism defined as believing in equality for everyone?"

Seriously? It isn't. Which would be why some of us don't identify with feminism.

Feminism is about addressing the injustices women face due to their sex.

So no, it isn't about addressing all the problems that occur in a hierarchical society (an herculean task).

Identifying as a feminist doesn't mean that you don't support equality for all.

It just isn't the political focus of feminism - IMO for two main reasons;

1. It is too big a challenge for one group to take on all the world's injustices (especially when that group is not the one that holds the reins of power).

2. Non-privileged groups tend to understand that they cannot speak for other non-privileged groups as they do not share the same lived experiences.

Women don't have to apologise for looking out for women's rights and not putting themselves to the back of the queue.