To be not entirely keen to look after my Grandma

[StWinifred]

My Grandma is 100 years old and rather debilitated, although fully compos mentis.

She was being looked after her by her son, who had lived with her for decades. He had a heart attack in the 1980s and I think the strain of looking after his Mum did for him, and he suffered a fatal heart attack in July.

Since then my parents has been looking after her, in her home, which is a largely original 1930s house.

She went to stay with my parents in their own home (an hour or so away) for a few days a month or so ago. She found this a bit disorienting but they were grateful to get home; this was curtailed when she had to go back home for medical appointment.

A few weeks ago my parents wanted to go away so they asked if I could help, I said she can stay here (in our hours for a week), but there's no way I can go there because of various prearranged commitments locally, school, etc. They didn't think this was a good idea.

My sister proposes early on that she should stay in her home as she has been in the area since birth. My sister has been with her partner (she doesn't believe in marriage I think) for a decade and has no children (doesn't believe in this either). Her idea was that we (my parents, my sister, and I), should look after her a couple of days per week each.

Due to work/childcare I can only do this over the weekend. Last weekend I headed there at 6pm (takes about 1hr 45 to get there) on Saturday and got back home at 5:30pm on Monday to pick up the kids from school. My sister was there from 6pm Monday till 8am Wednesday, working from home Tuesday, and I think planning to on Wednesday also in future, though she had a meeting on Wednesday so left early - in future she might be there until afternoon/evening though.

My father said he thinks I shouldn't go every week on Saturday as it would be disruptive to our family. I haven't made any commitments.

Anyway he called on Tuesday to ask what time I was coming on Sunday, and I said I didn't know I will let you know at the end of the week. He called me today at 11:30pm to ask the same, sorry I don't know, does it make any difference? Well we were thinking of going away for a couple of days, he said. Oh really?

He then sent me a rather nagging email saying they would appreciate a routine, and also could you come round and stay with the kids during half term to balance your sister's 'input'? (My DH has work to go to, locally, so it would be me + kids.)

I replied saying sorry I can't give you a routine after only one visit there, it ain't routine yet, and I'm not about to promise to match my sister, what she does is what she can do, and she's got her circumstances and she mine, and actually I didn't really feel the house was suitable for kids when I was there.

Grandma can't make it up the stairs, so she sleeps in the living room, and there's no toilet down stairs, so there's a commode there. She's got severe incontinence so lots of pads to dispose of, plus the commode to empty. She tends to fall over and she can't be left alone at home for more than about 2 hours. She needs her breakfast, lunch, dinner prepared, plus tea, drinks, etc.

They've been in this house for nearly 3 months now and they have no bed, just two very old 'small single' mattresses on the floor. Apparently they ordered a bed from Homebase but it takes 3 weeks or something? Anyway, I thought this was ridiculous, so when I was there on Saturday I went to a local shop and they said they could deliver a bed on Wednesday. Passed this information on to my father and apparently he couldn't get through to them on the phone, so er, still no bed for me to sleep on this weekend.

There's another empty bedroom for the kids (but no bed) but the window frame is rotten and there's a hole in the window.

My DH doesn't like this arrangement at all, and thinks Grandma should go live with my parents, and that it's their responsibility to look after their mother.

My father OTOH seems to think that its our collective responsibility (the four of us being her only direct descendants), and on that basis I should tell him what I'm doing and when, and not only that but try and 'make up' days that I haven't done (when compared with my sister) because childcare in the week is not practical.

I have told him several times that my DH is not really happy about the situation/disruption to family life (e.g., last Monday and foreseeably all future Mondays was disrupted because I had to get up at 7am to give Grandma her breakfast, after she was up till 00:45 watching TV the night before, and then I had to cycle 12 miles to get to the station to get home, and was way too knackered to cook a meal for the family, or to work with my DS on his 11+ preparation), but rather than taking the attitude that 'you are helping out, thank you very much', it seems to be more a case of 'why aren't you doing more'.

I am not really sure if IABU to be resentful of this attitude.

My parents have never told me what they are doing in advance, they will just do it on the day, and I have followed their lead, so if they want to know for instance what we are doing in half-term, I will tell them the day before, because that's when I will know myself. If they want to go away or something, then give me the dates and I will try and help, but it seems like they just want to go and do some gardening at home, ok well you don't need two weeks notice for that do you, and actually perhaps you can get a bloody bed in before I come round again.

Letty :o My parents used my grandmother's money (she had sold her house and moved into an property close to my parents, which they had adapted using some of her money, decades earlier) to pay carers to go in to her twice a day (to get her up, washed and breakfast, and put her to bed) plus the district nurse went to her daily I think. Then her needs increased and they tried putting her in the home, which they were made to remove her from after a short stay, and in her last year or so they paid for even more out-sourced care - all from her money though. TBH it didn't stop my mother being a huge martyr about it all and referring to my grandmother (her mil) as "my cross to bare" simultaneously expecting a considerable input from my sisters who live locally (not from me though - I live overseas and she liked to make the requests casually).

Interestingly my not yet elderly mother has been telling everyone for years that she won't be put into a home and expects her children to look after her when the time comes

Letty - yep, fair enough, these are not easy conversations to have. That's why it's helpful to broach the subject years before the time comes...so the seed has been planted. Which is also not easy, or my inlaws would have a downstairs bathroom in their rambling georgian house...

But, you can't deny someone who is able to make a choice to have the chance to make a choice! She's 100, not a moron. But, choices bring responsibilities - so she needs to accept the consequences too.

Her choices are:

1. stick with the status quo - and accept the risks to her health and family unity
2. organise respite and external support in order to remain in her own home - and accept that means needing to be a bit flexible with times of meals etc and the financial issues that go with organising outside help.
3. leave her home and go somewhere warm and cosy with either family or staff to help her with her toileting and meals. And, the financial implications of going into care means considering the inevitable sale of her home. She could live another decade...

These are her choices. Not the family's not social services, not mumsnet's.

Tell you what, if I get to be an old lady I shall be gloriously bloody minded at all times and tell people that's my choice. And, then ask them to put a dash more lemon in my gin, thanks.

My grandfather WAS mentally acute, he wanted to stay in his home. When he suffered an illness that led to his care needs changing he already had a horrendous pressure sore that had been ongoing for probably months.

As someone said up thread, caring for the very elderly is a specialist thing. I do hope you come to some sort of resolution over this.

It sounds to me like your mum and dad don't want to move your gran into a care home because it will be paid for out of her money/their inheritance.

They therefore want to care for her themselves. They can't cope and so pass their choice of care onto you and your sister and expect equal commitment from you all.

Not only is this unfair on you and your family, it is unfair on your gran. She needs to be cared for in a good, clean, care home where you can all visit as often as you like without all the stress.

They CANNOT assume that they have any right to her money. She isn't dead, she needs looking after by professionals and has the money to pay for it.

I'd ask your dad straight out if he's not prepared to pay for a carer because he wants a bigger inheritance, and if that's the case, then he and your mum needs to be prepared to do all the caring. Ask what the money is for if not care? For him?

Think it's disgusting that there has been any discussion about inheritance tax while your grandma is living in these conditions.

Your gran needs full time care. If that means selling her house and use her savings well, it's hers and should be spent making her life easier.

It winds me up that people think about the money they'll be getting later. I hope my parents have a comfortable and enjoyable old age and leave me precisely nothing.

Think you should suggest selling the house and finding sheltered housing with the money...

Am at Grandma's now.

She's pleased to see me.

She likes to talk about when she was a girl, and how the headmistress told her not to sit the scholarship exam because her mother couldn't afford to send her to school. Think I heard this last week as well.

Apparently she was very pleased with the roast I cooked her last Sunday. She's easily pleased.

The windows are being replaced next week. There'll be a bed here too. Porch not being done because they still need to think about it.

I don't think it's appropriate for me to broach the subject of her leaving her home. She's very proud of her garden, even if she only really looks at it out the window.

She likes someone to talk to, although I think she has seen some people other than my family in the week - apparently the cleaner came round with her granddaughter. Said granddaughter not half as clever as my Grandma's grandchildren/greatgrandchildren, apparently. (My Mum told me that she's in a special school or something, not sure if Grandma is fully 'with it' in terms of attitudes in this area).

I am a bit suspicious about the level of empathy of many carer types on £6/hour. I think she would like a lady of about 70 really.

Not sure how easy this is to find.

Well at least the "carer types on £6/hour" won't be after your Granny's money.

St W - you're doing it again...don't presume what she'd like the way of a carer, ASK HER!

And, btw, you'll get a lady of 70ish to do companionship, but carers don't often work into their later years as their backs and shoulders have been stuffed.

And, remember, if your grandma has the cash to flash she can choose who she has coming into her home. So, you might find a young, handsome man she just gets on with. THat's what I 'm hoping for in my old age.

Thing is though, she can still have your companionship and company

And a carer can do the care

BTW I'm pretty insulted on behalf of a couple of my friends who do care work with elderly people. Who do a brilliant job and have built genuine friendships with the people they work with. Don't buy in to the delusion that family will do a better job.

Meryl I agree.

I'm sure the majority of careers would do a better job than me. I intend to employ someone to look after Parente hen time comes. And spend my time enjoying each others company doing stuff or just talking....

OP (and sorry if I was grumpy upthread), I'd definitely take a much firmer line with your parents, and be much more direct in your communications with them. Make them sit down and have a proper meeting, and don't get guilt tripped. Work out what you can do and stick to it. If your gran needs looked after in her old age, then it's only right that she spends her money on making herself comfortable, not washing in a bucket to save a few quid!

I used to work in a care home when I was a student - the wages were crap, but it is possible to find decent carers without spending a fortune. I mean, some staff were always trying to get out of wiping bums, but others were really dedicated.

Another thing I found in that job was that sometimes, the people that we cared for ended up there as a result of their families trying to do too much. I remember one old lady whose daughter had a breakdown trying to care for her, so the granddaughter stepped in and then she also started suffering with mental health problems. The situation is already stressing you out, and presumably your parents too. The money that your parents think they'll eventually get might cost them very dearly in terms of stress, family relationships and their own quality of life.

I just took Grandma out for lunch.

She likes her food, and enjoyed it (£70 for 2 she should have done!)

Hard work though, bloody hell getting a wheelchair with a food-loving 100-year-old in up even many dropped kerbs is not really comparable with pushing a pushchair with a small (and bouncy!) child in.

She is not the most house-proud/appearance-focused person, but I do intend to ask her about getting the house done up a bit, i.e. downstairs toilet at least.

I was a 'carer type' on £6/h and I had shit heaps of empathy, thanks. I went into caring after being a live in carer for my grandad and being inspired by some of the fabulous care staff that made his final years happy and comfortable. What a rudiculous and rude thing to say.

I did find money obsessed family to be mostly wankers, though. You seem strangely obsessed with how much things cost.

What a stressful situation for you all.
I've read the thread, but didn't see if anyone had pointed you to this guide on how to start finding additional care and support.
Age UK also have an advice line you could call for information.

I hope you manage to convince your family to bring in outside help, for all your sakes but most particularly for your Grandma and your DCs.

Thanks Welsh. Er, I think.

Have those proposing that they ask Grandma what she wants and letting her decide actually asked an aged relative what they want because ime aged compos mentis relative wants the life they had say 20 years ago and think they can more or less have it. Ie be at home with lots of friends and family keeping things right.

When my DM's DM was old and had dementia and was wearing her sister into the ground my DM insisted "oh, just stick me in a care home when I get to that stage'.

However, despite all that when the time came what she wanted basically was to stay at home, regardless of the fact she couldn't manage or stay wiht me, regardless of the fact that my life would have been on hold (as she couldn't be left for any lenght of time). They also seem to be self-centred so that having a family member popping in every day for years and years is quite ok. So you need to do what suits everyone as it can be a longterm problem.

Agree with last two posters.

Elderly people seem to become obsessed with self-preservation. Even if they have spent years saying they won't be a burden etc etc, when they do need a lot of care they have no regard as to what their family can manage in terms of time or physical health. I have seen this exact pattern with, when I count up, four family members so I think it's probably quite typical.

Residential homes are not horrible prisons. What they are, however, is extremely expensive and that is what a family is all too often afraid of.

... And then you have people like my husbands aunt who does it because she enjoys the work. Having worked her entire life in an office, she is now retired, took early retirement, she actually likes being an "elderly ladies companion". She usually stay with her "charges" until they die, and become a stable companion, even a friend. She mourns the losses of "her elderly" deeply. She is 65.

Her last assignment she was live in from Friday until Sunday, as the weekday woman had the weekend off. She was paid £90 net for the weekend.

But, May - at which age are YOU planning to give up having an opinion?

I agree, people find thinking about change difficult - especially when they are older.

But, I find it curious that we now have an education system where 3 year olds are invited to share their interests, opinions and set their own objectives...and yet we do not extend that privilege to those in our society who have the most life experience of all.

Just bothers me. FWIW - both my grandmothers moved into sheltered housing and accepted carers as the time came because it made their lives easier. To be fair, neither of them had dementia and so they were involved in the process. And, some elderly people are who don't have dementia are pure bloody minded. And, dementia obviously changes a situation involving decision making.

Still, it's a bit cheeky to boss them about and make decisions for another adult IMO.

I'm a new poster but read this thread as a lurker and it struck a chord. I've been in this situation with my own parents - younger but in bad health with disabilities. It took years, and a 5 month stay in hospital after a fall to get my Mum to accept the care she needed and for my Dad to realise their kids could not provide it (not local, young families, full time jobs etc etc etc)

Options:

1. Do nothing to change the situation and continue to struggle to meet expectations. This WILL lead to substandard care for your gran as no matter how much you care you and your family do not have the professional experience and training to handle long term care.

1. Do nothing but remove yourself from the care equation. This will lead to massive amounts of guilt tripping and emotional blackmail and may irreparably damage family relations. You will also need nerves of steel to get through the worst of it.

1. Work on a solution that keeps your gran in her own home (however sub-standard that is) using a mixture of professional and family care. You will need to work with Social Services and may need to pay. This can involve health and social care needs including feeding, washing, laundry, cleaning. You may also find that she is not assessed as suitable for staying in her own home with a support package and you need to prepare for this.

1. Work on a solution that involves your gran moving in with your parents or sister with the intervention of Social Services. You may want to consider respite options which could be a week in a care home that has respite places (hen's teeth) or the non-resident family coming to stay. You would probably also want to have regular professional carers coming in.

1. Work on getting your gran into residential care either where she currently lives or where your parents live. This would mean she is safe, warm and looked after but has obvious cost implications.

Other things to remember:

1. The help is there if you ask for it. Talk to AgeUK, the local Adult Social Care team, the GP or District Nurse and they will help you access it.

1. Whilst your gran is mentally competent to make her own decisions she should be doing so in full knowledge of the consequences and risks of those decisions. They need to spelled out which should be done kindly but firmly.

1. You need some personal red lines - I will only commit to x and no more. And you need to stick to them

1. Not everyone is cut out to provide personal care. I couldn't do it so think about your own limitations. There is nothing wrong with not being able to do this. For my Mum having professional carers (although hugely resented at the time) was a lifeline. She has been able to stay in her own home with these lovely people coming in to help her four times a day who she gets to know and have a nice chat with. This has rescued an increasingly stressful and resentful relationship with her kids and freed us up to provide two weeks of respite for my Dad so he can go away and leave her with us and the carers. When her kids and grandkids visit they can actually sit an talk rather than scurry around cleaning and sorting out the house.

1. Get used to negotiating the system. It's not fun but you can make it work for you.

My opinion:

Your gran needs to move in with your parents/sister or move into a residential home. Her current situation is unsustainable and unsafe (the house sounds in a dreadful state).

Well I am quite pissed off today.

Had a pleasant weekend with Grandma. Left her at 3:30pm with one of her friends. She said to me "'People say how long have you known ?' I say 'Only since she was born'"

That was all very well but had all kinds of trouble getting home, it took hours, had to call DH to pick kids up from school, wasn't happy to have to leave work, and I can't blame him really. After eventually getting home, I wasn't happy and could foresee that there would likely be similar delays in the future, and we just don't need it in our lives.

Quite apart from that I am not happy with her living conditions, she went to bed last night and then called me 'I haven't got any toilet paper', so I go in and throw the toilet paper in, she appears to have clothes on so I pick it up off the floor as she's 100 years old and doesn't need to be bending over to pick things up if it's not absolutely essential. Anyway she said 'I could have done that', sort of embarrassed but I can see shit in a bag, not quite sure how she does it (TMI), but anyway the situation is not right, she needs a toilet at the least.

I am sure she will want to stay in her own home, but it should be made the best it can be for her needs and comfort.

I was quite indignant/pissed off after long journey home, and not in the mood to mess around, I say 'I'm not doing this again'. DH says 'well you can go round every fortnight'.

So I said

'No, I am not going to enable their behaviour.

My parents are being cheap, she needs a carer 7 days a week, and if I say that I will perform anything like fortnightly caring, that just enables them to try and write me into their cut-price care rota instead of taking the proper solution which is to pay for people to do this.

The fact is she has got £300k+ worth of assets, and they should be used solely for her benefit. If she can have a nicer, more pleasant life by spending £30k/year rather than £20k/year, than that's as it should be.

My sister is a martyr, maybe she wants this, but I'm quite sure my parents don't want to spend half their week there. They certainly never saw her even monthly before. They need to be told, firmly, that the best thing for Grandma is that, assuming she wants to stay in her home (and I'm sure she wants to remain in her neighbourhood at the very least) she should have a live-in carer, we will continue to visit her, socially, perhaps we could help out when the carer is on holiday, but we will not provide care.

There is pots of money, it is not my parents' money (though it presumably will be in a few years), it is not my money (I don't expect to receive any more than a nominal sum and it's not of interest to me), it is Grandma's money, and what she needs is care, a dignified living situation, and what she enjoys is her food (and company), so she should have all her food from Waitrose and basically spare no expense.

She is not going to be buried with this money, it's hers and she doesn't seem to have any problem with spending it, she has said (in the past, before this care situation came up) that she has been frugal all her life she can be a bit frivolous now, and I'm sure she has no issue spending what cash she has (although I can see perhaps that she might possibly have some concerns about mortgaging/equity release on the house, but that is not guaranteed), and she damn well should, and not scrimp on a single penny.

I know my father got pissed off that he 'lost' his own mother's inheritance, but frankly it's just tough shit and never his in the first place, and I have pussy-footed around too long enabling his behaviour by saying things like 'the house would need renovating at some point anyway' (i.e. the implication being it wouldn't be 'lost money' when the house was sold on her death, since it would be reflected in the house's value), but fuck it, just get to the point'

I'm not going to go in too hard with the 'how dare you start counting your mother-in-law's money' angle, but I will say clearly that they need professional carers, and that they can have the house renovated in relatively short order if they actually ever did anything instead of endless procrastination. Obviously if money is raised then I would say 'I don't know how much savings she had' and then 'Can the house be mortgaged?'

I have thought of saying 'we (DH and I) could take a lien on the house and provide some cash' (we have substantial savings) but I feel this is probably a bad idea, since firstly we might need the savings, and secondly because I just don't want to get entangled in it, my parents can do what they like with the money when she's gone, it's better if we are well clear. It would however be unreasonable if we were to make any substantial contribution financially, since it's effectively a payment to my parents and as mentioned she clearly does have cash.

Anyone know how to realise the equity value of a property in this situation? I know there are equity release schemes, but I have got the impression that these tend to be a rip-off (Dad wouldn't like that AT ALL, basically he wouldn't really want to pay anything more than what a mortgage would cost).

www.wiltshirefarmfoods.com

St. Winifred - well done. This is Not Going To Be Easy. But, the thing that will make it easier is knowing where your own boundaries are.

I may have tiny pompoms I am waving at you. Hang in there, it'll get easier.

Thanks for all of your comments, very helpful to realise that I am not the one who is being selfish & reasonable.

Very easy to get a warped perspective when dealing with emotional blackmail y family.