to be fed up of George sodding Osbourne and his Knobbish Ideas

[avivabeaver]

The economy is proving harder to fix than he first thought

Solution- suggest cutting £10bn from the benefits budget and "limit the number of children people can claim for". So- are you supposed to choose your 2 favourite and just feed them then? Or what?

'Anyone who begrudges children, food, warm clothes and a roof over their heads is sick. No matter what the circumstances of their birth.' yes, that.

What if someone does the sums and it turns out they are expecting twins or something?

What we need is to grow the economy not pull the floor out from those already vulnerable. Disabled, children, carers- all getting hit from all sides.

EVERY time Gideon starts on about the economy being in a mess, DH's business stops taking much for a week; people are scared by his talk. Because that's sensible right? Stifle small businesses. Panic people into not buying. Shove more people onto benefits, skilled people often but also those who will struggle with CVs and references after self employment.

It's not a policy, it's a demolition plan.

Well they sure don't come from taking it away. Prairie I think that's a truly horrible thing to say. Really how can you assume that someone having difficulty taking full responsibility for their own children actually doesn't care about them??????? I mean really how many mums and dads are there out there who don't care about their kids ffs!!!!! People may live chaotic lives and not make "sensible" or informed choices, let's not say that means they don't care about their kids.

i would love to have another baby (we already have dt's) but there is no way we could even afford for the reduction in our monthly income that maternity pay would result in. A friend of ours decided to have another child despite her and her dp are both out of work and on benefits. As she put it, it doesn't pay to work. They have a significantly better standard of living than us. So as much as I hate to agree with a tory policy, but i don't have a problem with cutting £10bn from the benefits budget and "limit the number of children people can claim for". If it means more people venture into the world of work and make an economic contribution.

No they don't, they come through investment in things like schools and services. Eg pre-school services like SureStart. Which, oh yes, the govt has all but abolished.

Education, support and opportunities don't come by giving parents free money.

My last post was in response to btw

"everyone draws up their best judgypants to criticise the very worst off in society and kick them even further down."

Yes, that, exactly.

Greeneyed because I've taught such children and witnessed the lack of care from their parents first hand.It happens,trust me.

Free money???

And what, pray tell, is the alternative? Children dying of starvation (it has happened in London already) or the side affects of poverty, communicable diseases etc on the rampaging, clogging up the hospitals? Poverty costs the state money. A well fed, well housed population is cheaper in the long run than a population that cannot afford warm clothes in the winter or good food.

Ever seen scurvey? Nasty disease. How about asthma, diabetes and diarrhea? All diseases of poverty that kill the young and vulnerable in developed countries. TB is already on the rise in some parts of inner cities. Overcrowding and poor housing conditions contribute to it's spread and it's damn expensive to treat.

Sure start is still going in deprived areas. It got cut in the areas where it was found to only be benefitting those who don't really need it. And free pre school education is being expanded.

Again, not free money to parents.

Peachy, it would be difficult if a family found they were pregnant with twins, but no more so than it would be for a working family who won't be given extra money either,

Actually no, I don't believe there is much worse than that level of amorality.

There is no level of poverty that would make me willing to tell a pregnant woman she should abort for the sake of the country: that's what this is.

I could never stoop so low, ever. All my children were conceived and born within an employed family; I have never had failed contraception; my husband has stood by us throughout untold shite.

That makes me lucky, not better than.

And to tell people this from people whose lives are comfortable- as all or MPs naturally are- disgusting. Absolute disgrace.

We are skipping meals at the moment to keep afloat as DH's student loan application has been mishandled by the council: I still managed to find a packet of pasta for the food bank yesterday. Compared to many we are lucky. That this shower of a Government can consider bringing this in given their well fed lives- yuck. My father grew up in serious poverty, poaching and stealing to eat, working age 5. It's cases like him that we re the inspiration behind the welfare state: it is the safety and care of children, and the vulnerable, that is the welfare state.

I am genuinely revolted.

The alternative is people thinking twice about having children they can't pay for in the first place.

Outraged- working famillies WILL be affected.

from next year we have Universal Credit: Universal, geddit? As in one benefit for all.

Anyone getting tax credits now will be on it as much as someone getting JSA now.

So they will just as hard working as anyone else. We NEED the lower paid people in our society. Stuff my degree- nothing I do is as valuable now as when I left school and worked in an OAPs home.

I did read a suggestion it will be based on housing claims: 80% of housing claimants are not unemployed. That's a bloody small percentage left who are.

Okay bowing out now before I blow a gasket and I need to make a sensible choice about maybe doing a bit of work before I make the dinner for my boy (fortunate not to be born into poverty, there by the grace of god goes him) the comment about deciding whether to continue the pregnancy is frankly just scary!! Yes my choice is terminate or bring a baby into the world I can't feed, fucking hell really? Women back in the dark ages again.

What happens if a family is made up of four kids and a loving Mum and Dad both in work. The Dad gets a serious debilitating illness, or suffers a terrible accident (you know, just falls of his bike and dies in the middle of the road)? Result for family - less income and heartbreaking trauma.

Shouldn't we try to help them?

"It's not a policy, it's a demolition plan"
well said peachy
please notice that the bus passes/ fuel payments for pensioners. was kept untouched.

Outraged
Take a look at the UEA study I posted on page two of this discussion.
I'm afraid Disability benefits are no longer a seperate discussion.

There are a lot of babies born to people whose capacity to think twice is limited. To teenagers who don't have a clue. To people who underestimate the costs. To people whose chances of anything changing, ever, are pretty limited but still feel that very real drive to have a family- low paid, hard working people without the skills to progress further in their careers.

A lot of babies born from failed contraception- 99% of conceptions may be preventable through reversable contraception, that means 1% are not: in real terms, in 2011, that 8071 real pregnancies. And that's just where contraception is used properly, and not where it fails due to sickness etc.

Nah, as long as they hand out universal benefits like fuel payments to their key voters (OAPs) in better off and warmer areas and climates, I am taking this as nothing but a shot at ideology.

JamNam- that's similar to us.

DH was a Transport manager; I was doing my degree with a place arranged at teacher training college when ds4 was born.

Within a year DH had been made redundant, and set up his own, much lower paid (so far, we remain hopeful) business: the lack of flexibility meant I ended up staying as a carer as we had two disabled children, we now have 3 as ds4 is in the diagnostic process. Childcare is non existent.

We get by- just- but every week it becomes more and more 'just'. Yet we could not have tried harder.

I hope to go back to work soon, DH has managed to stay chugging along but our income is down 2/3.

JamNan, of course a family in that situation should be helped. I'm not in favour of scrapping benefits all together ffs!

Peachy, yes, I do 'geddit' thanks.

After reading the recent abortion threads, most women seem to be pro choice. Personally, I'm not, but with choice comes responsibility. People can't have everything their own way when they need others to fund their lives.

Sorry Peachy if you can't afford another child you use 2 or 3 methods of contraception or abstain.

I'm with you on the OAP thing though and I think the Tories are bonkers.I'm not a Tory voter but seriously do they honestly think they're going to win voters by consistently protecting their own.

JamNam - Yes we should but I guarantee they wouldn't get any help! I know someone who has been in that position and was made to sell everything they had before the state would even consider helping!

I happen to agree about the winter fuel payments but can actually see the problem. All those "rich" pensioners paid their taxes/NI etc on the understanding that there would be a "one size fits all" set of payments on retirement.
My Mum gets the Winter Fuel Allowance and pays it immediately to Help The Aged - but she'd not understand an argument that after 45 years of paying her dues she was suddenly entitled to less than other pensioners.

I find it astounding that someone can begrudge OAPs who have worked and paid into the system a winter fuel payment, but think others who have never worked a day in their lives should be given more than enough to live on.