to think that Freemasonry should not be allowed to exist?

[StickMeToTheMan]

... or that members should declare their membership - especially those in positions of power - police, SS, politicians etc?

I am just flabbergasted that this is allowed in this day and age. Take a look at the JS scandal and the potential involvement of the masons, and surely no-one can dispute that this old boy network is dangerously shady.

Can anyone explain to me what it is really for, and if membership to any secret society is justifiable in this day and age?

AIBU?

(Namechanged as have been discussing on FB)

stickmetotheman, that was incredibly rude i wouldnt expect my children to think it was acceptable to add things like durr to something they said and im guessing you are older than they are, if not you really should be at school.

as you should be well aware within the court system you are required to declair things that do cause a conflict (i know i have had to excuse myself from involvement when family members are also involved, i have also been excused from jury duty due to a personal friendship with a person involved) but the onus is on the person themselves except in some cases to decide if a conflict if actually there.

See me point above about declarations of interest. It may seem to be reasonable that a mason who isn't personally friendly to not feel the need to declare an interest, however they are sworn by blood to protect one another.

Cote - assuming you aren't being deliberately obtuse - the point is that police who are not masons do not want masons involved in investigating crimes of other masons - in this case the masons were police accused of murder.

Non-masonic police are aware that conflicts of loyalty (whether demanded or not as part of signing-up or just how people end up behaving towards fellow brethren) fuck with the criminal justice system.

I wonder what people will say about masons in the police when the Clwyd North Wales care abuse scandal (Waterhouse Report) is released. Presumably it will still be considered a harmless hobby for the husband then. And when the Jersey Haut de la garenne papers are released. And the Islington care abuse scandal D notice is lifted. Scotland and Jersey have worse issues because of smaller communities - the higher percentage of masons in the criminal justice system within a smaller society increases their invincibility.

It would be great if all the police who aren't masons declared themselves.

Good, clear posts, Hell. I salute you. I honestly don't know why people are so anxious to deride 'conspiracy theories' (except the ones about shapeshifting alien lizards, etc). One woman's collusion is another's co-operation. Happens all the time. You can often tell one from the other by the amount of concealment & denial.

"significant issues where masons appear to be acting under the impression they are somehow required to protect their own"

Or they could be protecting each other because (1) they are friends, and (2) they are colleagues. Have you thought about that?

You must know that the police are a very loyal bunch who tend to protect each other and are known to have lied to inquiries in order to protect a fellow policeman, even if they are not Freemasons.

how many different people do you need to tell you that the law and your own morals come above any promise to protect anyone.

Absolutely Cote - that happens in any walk of life. You tend to know who's friends with who though because they are connected openly in their day to day life. If people are connected but their connection is hidden from open view then you're not going to think ah PC A wold stick up for PC B they go way back - however if you cant' see an open connection/friendship which might imply loyalty and trigger concerns about letting PC A investigate PC B then PC A gets to work on a case where PC B and he do go way back but no one really knows that.

"the point is that police who are not masons do not want masons involved in investigating crimes of other masons"

So what? Is that supposed to be damning proof of some evil?

I've not read the whole thread (14 pages long!!) but if you think that being a Mason is anything to do with being Satanic or any of that guff then you're incredibly ignorant.

I understand that because of the secrecy of their rituals, rumours are going to occur, but there's no need to leap to silly conclusions.

My Husband, Dad and Borther-in-Law are Masons, it's just like a big boys club where they have meetings and discuss issues and yes, perform rituals to move up the the organisation.

It may have had some connotations in the past with 'moving up in the world' etc, but that certainly isn't the case now, and anyone caught trying to use their status as leverage would be immediately dismissed.

CoteDazur,do you protect people you know to be guilty?

Hell - Are you saying that you need to know where all policemen know each other from? Isn't it enough that they obviously know each other as friends and colleagues?

You don't get that Freemasons are not obliged to help each other, and they are especially not supposed to do so if this will lead to thwarting justice or breaking the law. Freemasons are expected to be people of good moral values and sound character.

So what if there was an inquiry where some policemen wanted to know if others were Freemasons? How is that supposed to be evidence for insidious intent? Seriously.

No, amillionyears, I don't.

Do you?

Home affaris committee report in 1997 when Jack Straw tried to introduce requirement for police and judiciary to declare FM membership:

"The government introduced the declaration rule after it was recommended by the Commons home affairs committee in a report published in March 1997. The committee said that "nothing so much undermines public confidence in public institutions as the knowledge that some public servants are members of a secret society one of whose aims is mutual self-advancement".

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199798/cmselect/cmhaff/577s1/has103.htm

The requirement to declare was dropped after the United Lodge threatened legal action under the Human Rights Act.

No.

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199798/cmselect/cmhaff/577s1/has103.htm

Sorry proper link

Of course they would sue and they should. If the same was demanded of Rotary Club, they would sue, too.

Cote - I wonder why the Home Affairs committee claims mutual self-advancement as one of the aims of masonry when as you say there is no requirement of loyalty to one's brethren and therefore no conflict of interest?

You know what, I actually think the members of teh ROtary Club are quite proud of being members of the rotary club and wouldn't care. Same as the WI seeing as they have been compared as a similar situation.

Those in the WI - Do you keep it a secret from anyone not in the WI? Anyone in the Rotary club do the same?

i rarely disclose my wi membership in rl unless i have to due to the preconcived notion that we are jam fetishists

Ha ha Sock - I just asked my friend who's a keen WIer and she said she's out and proud! I don't think a fetish for jam can be considered criminal so you're safe. Are you a closed group? Do you not recruit or invite new members to join then?

When do you feel you have to disclose your WI membership? In what kind of situations?

Freemasonry is practised by predominantly white men; the same group who exert the most power in society. There is no political equivalence with female freemasonry groups or predominantly women-only groups, such as the oft touted Women's Institute.

I can see why people who benefit from privilege might be in denial about it; it was ever thus.

Their partners and families benefit from that privilege and have a lot invested in it. Despite the emphasis within freemasonry on secrets and the oaths not to reveal them to a non-mason, their partners and families seem to cheerfully believe that they know everything about the organisation and are easily reassured that its influence is benign and harmless. That's a hell of a psychological feat that defies logic, but if you benefit from the privilege associated with it, it's going to help you sleep at night to undertake that contorted logic.

Surely the point of this is that no-one knows whether freemasonry corrupts? Even freemasons themselves who are not in positions of power and influence, cannot know that it hasn't had a bearing on the decisions of those who are?

What we can say is that there have been repeated allegations over the years that freemasonry has subverted the criminal justice process, recruitment and selection exercises, the award of business contracts, planning applications, public inquiries into wrongdoing; in fact virtually every area of public life. So membership of that organisation is likely to damage the trust and confidence of people who expect public officials to act with impartiality.

I'm really glad you're referencing the Daniel Morgan case Hell. If ever there were a case that might wake people up to what's wrong in public life and shed their cloaks of denial, it is that one.

It's an absolute fucking travesty Charbon, it really is. Just goes to show how successful the masons can be at subverting the course of justice when those that want to put their mind to it. Very scary.

And like I said, not all masons do want to do that at all. But if you're a mason in the criminal justice system you do have at least access and opportunity should you want to.

need to know where all policemen know each other from? Isn't it enough that they obviously know each other as friends and colleagues?

You're being wilfully obtuse, Cote. Police officers would not be permitted to investigate members of their own family, by blood or marriage, or close friends since childhood who are de-facto relations. Freemasons are "brothers". This isn't just a non-word, it's a meaningful bond and undertaking. On this basis, there's a good argument for disallowing professional investigations against one another. It isn't, however possible, as there's no legal requirement or recognition of the fraternal relationship.

A charity which helps my disabled son was struggling financially and on the brink of closing. I applied to the Masons who donated enough to keep them going for another year. We found them to be really friendly and charitable. They had an open day a few weeks after for anyone to go into the lodge and find out more. I did read somewhere that they are now making an effort to be more open, and a lot of the secrecy over the recent decades has been a legacy of Masons being a known target in the Second World War.