To think that a school cannot impose restrictions on what parents can do during the school day?

[crosstraineraddict]

A friend of mine was telling me about something that has happened at the school where her DCs go. Several times in the past few months, parents have gone out for the day to places over an hour away, to meet friends or go shopping or whatever, and their child has been ill at school, so they've been called and been over an hour getting to the school to pick up their child.

The parents have all apparently had a letter now stating that a parent must be within half an hour of the school at all times during the school day, and that they recommend that at least one parent works locally!

Am I alone in thinking this is bonkers and unfair, not to mention dictatorial!

dikker, think it through. I live 5 miles away from the nearest high school, in a rural area. There are almost 1500 children in the school, so 3000 parents, and an absolute MAXIMUM of a couple of hundred jobs within the area. It isn't a matter of choice whether or not someone can work close to school!

Besides, for much of the past ten years, I have had two children at two different schools which are over half an hour's travelling apart, so being close to one would mean being too far from the other!

hatesponge, my employer has a performance framework which means that staff who have more than 2 periods of sick leave in a year, totalling more than 7 days, do not pass their appraisal and get do not their annual increment. We have staff taking annual leave to cover their ^own* sickness; sick children cause real, significant problems.

... And when schools respond to parents keeping their genuinely sick children off school by threatening them with social services, it just compounds the problem.

Society has changed, and schools are in a difficult position because there are so few stay-at-home mums these days, with people working further and further afield... But schools that don't recognise the genuine challenges, and so make enemies of parents, are foolish and short-sighted.

That's an absurdly simplistic view. If you have a career (as I do) you have to take jobs where they are available. I have worked in 4 completely different Towns (albeit all in the SE of England) in the last 10 years. They have each been the nearest jobs at the time, and none was less than an hour's commute from my home. What could I have done? Move each time to a new town, only to move again when that job came to an end? That's ridiculous! I'm far from the only person in this position - the days of people working within a few miles radius of their homes are long gone, certainly if you live in the London area.

Plus no-one has a job for life. My Ex's jobs on site last anything from a week to 6 months. I've changed jobs every 2-3 years. I can only think of one person I know who has had the same job, working in the same location, for more than 5 years. You might move so that you have a job close to home, the next one may be 30 miles away, the one after that 20 miles in a different direction. It's impossible to predict.

And as for this fabled emergency cover, where is a parent to find this? Thankfully my DC are now old enough for me not to have this worry, but it was always an issue for me when they were at primary school. My parents died long before my DC were born, I have no siblings or other family. My eldest DS has no contact with his father/father's family. My neighbours were infirm and elderly, the younger ones work FT. My friends also work whether FT or PT. When my DC were primary age, my emergency contact was their CM, but she was often out during the day (as she only had pre/post school mindees) so could never guarantee to be within a certain distance of school at all times - or in any event not busy doing something else!

I am 49 and I have quite a lot of qualifications and experience and no, I don't want to do a boring badly-paid job, should one come up in the immediate area. I like my job. So shoot me.

That was to dikker

flow I agree entirely. My DC's old primary school operated on the outdated notion that every family had one SAHP readily available at all times. Hence why the Head told me I should get a job closer to home, and why school staff expected me to 'pop home' during the day and get DS1's missing homework, or DS2s forgotten PE kit.

"I don't understand why schools no longer have a sick room. I went to school in the 1980s, there were sick rooms in both my primary and secondary schools (a room next to the secretary's office with a bed, sink, etc). "

Absolutely. My parents were both teachers - should they have abandoned their classes if I got sick? Mind you, one of them was in the same school, i.e. about 2 minutes walk. So maybe they could have ticked the box.

There were no other possible emergency contacts really.

"If you choose to work a long way away from your child's school, knowing that you do not have any emergency cover, then I am afraid that is your choice and you will have to deal with the consequences. "

Many of us can't choose where we work!

I'm surrised you get asked to go home and get forgotten homework and P.E kit. I'm a SAHM and not far away and depite homework being forgotten and P.E kit not being there I've never been asked to do this.

The DC get told to bring it in next day, or get given the spare school kit or just have to manage or sit it out. They've never forgotten the lunch but DC who do they apparently ring and give the parents a choice about brining it in or putting them on dinners and paying later.

Bonkers. Yes we could live in a smaller house. Yes we could eat beans on toast every night. But I'm not bloody going to... dh and I work hard and like to enjoy the nice (not massive or expensive) house and varied diet etc etc. That's our choice.

THe downside of our choice is of course that we have to go to work. In opposite directions. Our home is fairly central to the both of us. DHs office is closer but he works very long hours so that makes sense in terms of time actually spent with the dc's in the house. It would (and has) taken me an hour to get to a poorly child. I would have to hand over to a colleague, finish up and drive 40 mins to school. That's assuming of course that I'm available to take calls at the right moment, if I'm in a meeting I could be an hour before even getting the message. Not a problem if dh is office based but he works away a lot, often abroad and sod's law clearly states that the dc's are only ill when he's away.

Good job the dc's school/nursery live on the same planet as I do. In fact, dh had a long stay in hospital 2 hours away last year, I was visiting him while dd2 was at nursery when she suddenly spiked a teperature of 39.5. The wonderful nursery manager took her to the doctor for me while I raced home. Above and beyond the call of duty really and much appreciated at the time.

I do have friends who would possibly be able to step in if there was an emergency but most people I know work at least part time. No family within easy driving distance although they can and do come over if a dc needs to be off for more than a couple of days. It's just going to have to do I'm afraid.

I'm surprised you get asked to go home and get forgotten homework and P.E kit

I had an absolute nightmare with the TA in DD's class the year before last doing this - called me because she hadn't gone in with a cap on an overcast day because it was forecast to be sunny later (it was sport's day - rained off by a massive thunderstorm), then because she didn't have a jacket when it was sunny and about 75 degree because 'it might rain later', and various other very minor, easily resolvable without contacting me at work stuff.

Just because I work five minutes away doesn't mean I can drop everything at a moment's notice because they expect the kids to turn up as fully equipped as Sherpa Tensing.

Luckily it was all towards the end of the summer term or I think we would have fallen out in a very major way.

Cassandra I used to get called for all manner of stupid things that had to be brought into school there and then, missing homework, reading records, permission slips etc.

My favourite however was when DS1 had a nosebleed over his shirt and school called asking me to bring him in some spare clothes as they had nothing to fit him in lost property. I suggested he wear his PE kit. They hadn't thought of that...

That's just stupid JustSpiro I'm shocked by that.

TBH the well you'll have to manage attitude has done my DC some good - they remember things a lot more IMO as not doing so brings consequences.

There is enough thinking I'm at their beck and call as a SAHP without the school encourageing this view and if I was working I'd be livid with that attitude.

That's absolute insanity! Nobody will pay any attention to it I'm sure.

As many others have said the distance is irrelevant anyway.

I work in the same building as my children and I still couldn't get to them that quickly. In fact, unless it was a dire emergency, I couldn't get to them at all. I can't just dump a class full of other children because mine happens to be sick. They just have to stay in sick bay.

I think the real problem is that schools have lost their sick bays. Why is that? I've never been in a school without one, they're essential as far as I'm concerned.

I also think it actually is a school's job to look after children, no matter what, within the hours that they are in loco parentis.

Do some schools really not do hospital runs themselves any more? I took two children to hospital last year (one on a school trip and one because I had a double free period). There should always be someone available in a school to do that, imo. Same with checking on a sick child. if there's no nurse (which I think there should be) then there should be a TA.

I've even heard recently of a school which calls parents in if a child wets themselves for goodness sake.

Things need to be set up to help working and single parents, not hinder us!

Luckily it was only this one particular TA that has been that bad but they do seem to expect them to have gear on them for every eventuality. The latest thing is that they want them to have a waterproof jacket to keep at school all the time so they can do PE outside in wet weather. Since waterproof jackets aren't especially cheap I said no - she can take it to and from, but tbh I'm starting to weaken just to minimise the hassle.

DD's school also arrange a huge amount of stuff in working hours. There is an hour and half assembly and 'sharing learning' session every term that every parent is expected to attend or send another adult in their place. They register the parents and will phone and follow it up if no-one comes. This is on top of all the usual school plays, parents evening, sports days etc etc.

We are very lucky that I'm five minutes down the road and my work are extremely obliging about me working round all this stuff, plus I've switched from term-time to all year round work this year which gives me a holiday allowance, but for other working parents it must be a bloody nightmare.

My primary school didn't have a sick bay in 80s- or my secondary but they found quiet places - where sick DC sat away from others.

My DC school must do hospital runs - as they ask you to sign concent forms in case the DC needs tratement but they can't get hold of a parent but it's not emergency treatment. Mind you I've seen the Head master walk a sick DC home as the parent couldn't get there for some good reason.

It's strange it varies so much. Its not the thing that springs to mind when looking round schools either.

do schools not employ a welfare person anymore. that was my main question. my dcs primary school always did and their secondary state has matron. i have worked in a school and it is no joke when the children come in ill then they make you ill in the process i think.

OOH i can see how difficult it is if your child is sick and have experienced it myself.

i wonder though if some people do take advantage and the school sent a note round to everyone even though it may have been one incident

OP you are quite correct.

The school cannot impose restrictions on what parents do during the school day.

So the sensible thing would be to employ a first aider to look after poorly children, but there's no money in the budget for this so what do parents suggest?
Take a TA out of the classroom but that would affect learning. Ask parents to pay extra? We already struggle to get money for swimming/ trips so that's not going to happen. So to the posters on here who think schools should look after children what are your suggestions?

I remember being in the school office at primary school in the 80s with horrendous ear infections howling in pain, and half aware the office staff couldn't get hold of either of my parents at work - both doctors .

School doesn't have a right to tell parents how to spend the day while their child is at school obviously, but as a parent you do have ultimate responsibility to be "on call" for your child whether you are in paid work or spend your day caring for other dependants or shopping and visiting friends an hour from school . Ultimately school is there to educate children and is not meant to be an all encompassing child care setting - as others have said the budget needed for a proper sick bay is large, including one full time salary and a dedicated room if children are to be cared for properly for a couple of hours when ill. It is not only an inconvenience to the school to have parents unable to collect and care for their own sick children, it is totally miserable for the child if they are really properly ill while at school :(

I don't think it's as clear cut as "school can't tell me what to do with my day" personally... It is a no win situation in many ways and being the working parent upon whom the responsibility to care for children when sick falls is hard, but it does make sense to me that one parent or a nominated suitable adult (grandparent or other appropriate choice) does need to be a reasonable, sensible distance from school most of the time, in order to be able to get there at short notice under normal circumstances, for the child's sake as much as the school's...

It might well be 'reasonable', but it simply isn't possible for many of us - see my letter above.

(And thank you for your kind words and appreciation, whois, TDOS, exotic, jane and Helena :) )

Flow I appreciate that, I said its a no win situation for some - the thing is what is the solution in cases like yours? There isn't one, I'm not sure it is the school's job to care for a child who is throwing up all over the place or howling in pain (though it should be common sense that if they have a headache or tummy ache they can sit quietly in the office til it passes or similar).

However the OP was drawing attention to parents who were over an hour's driving distance from school shopping and having coffee with friends - this is rather more avoidable! School cannot dictate what parents do with their days, there are a not inconsiderable number of people who simply, with the best will in the world cannot be available to collect their child in an emergency or ensure somebody else can. However there are other people who could chose to remain a reasonable distance from school most of the time (though they may have one off days when it is impossible due to hospital visits or other responsibilities), but it appears don't think it is their job...

Some people have no choice, but many could work around one parent or some other contact being available and don't feel they should have to... Whose job is it to care for children too ill to be in school - if it is the school's then most state schools are in no way equipped to do so and the children suffer for it as well as staff.

Seriously? I think the solution is for schools to recognise that parents have lives and responsibilities, and to show us as much respect as they would like from us. They can ask parents to collect asap, but they cannot expect it.

They are never in a million years going to be able to guarantee that every poorly child will be collected within half-an-hour - and they will always need to provide a suitable space for a child to wait... So they might as well do it with good grace. If they plan properly, it will make 'emergencies' much less stressful for them as well as everyone else :)

I think many schools do terrible damage to their relationships with parents with letters like these - ones which are rude and demanding and unreasonable. Good schools with wise head teachers write and say "We would really appreciate it if you could review your emergency contacts and try to make sure someone can pick your child up within half an hour if necessary - but we do recognise that parents have busy, demanding lives and this might not be possible".

My DCs' school always seems to write as if they are wagging fingers at us, and it puts parents' backs up.

well put flow 4. i know i keep banging on but i am still amazed there is no sick bay/welfare. my ds is in y10 and when he left primary there was definitely a welfare lady who had been there years and when she went for lunch the SMSA's supervised.

what happens if children are diabetic or asthmatic and lots of them have allergies and epipens so i am still not believing there is no special person assigned to this.

Yes, the letter was badly worded (lots of school senior management have no people skills and seemingly no awareness of the reality of the world outside school). But at the same time I still don't think school is the place for a sick child, and I remember how it felt being the one feeling really, really ill in school with no parent coming to fetch me, and I wouldn't want that to happen to my kids - I wouldn't choose to go more than a half hour drive from school for social reasons (like shopping or visiting friends) and if I had any choice about where to work and nobody I could rely on to be the contact in my place, it would be a factor I would seriously have on my mind, as my husband already works over an hour and a half from home.

Where I live primary school is only 3-4 hours a day and a lot of ex-pat SAHP complain about how it interferes with their days, and I always think this is missing the point of having kids a bit, which has possibly given my baggage on this issue...

alemci I used to teach in the UK many moons ago, and there was a staff member with responsibility for this who was also the head first aider, but her main job was in the administrative office, she wasn't a full time welfare or sick bay officer - I think that is probably the usual state of affairs. In my daughter's school (abroad though) there are literally only 4 class teachers for 4 classes, no slack at all, and parents are totally responsible.

tbh the primary school day is not that long. from 8.40 to 3.10 so you could never go far. i also had to either collect from playgroup or morning nursery then i worked there so i never really went far.

when i went to work school hours, my workplace was up the road. i was also fortunate to have my mum nearby, and my DH was often around due to irregular working hours.

it is hard if you have to commute and now house prices are so high i think things are very different.

I don't even have my mobile on during the day (it's illegal to have a mobile on you where I work), so I imagine I wouldn't be very popular with some schools. I do have a direct landline contact number available while I'm at work, but I'm not at my desk constantly.