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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think benefits are a safety net against poverty, not a cushion against an uncomfortable life ?

309 replies

TalkinPeace2 · 30/09/2012 18:02

Prompted by a thread where somebody said "DH has lost his job, what benefits are we entitled to?"

Sorry, but its the duty of ALL those on more than average wages (£26k per household) to put money aside for a rainy day.
No wonder the country is up to its eyes in debt if people first think about benefits rather than self reliance.

The benefit system should be to prevent true poverty, no more.

The American system has too many gaps. Most European systems, including that in the UK, provide far too comfortable a cushion, at far too high a cost to the next generation (as historically current over generous benefits have been kicked down the road to be paid for by our children who will never be entitled to such things).

OP posts:
PropertyNightmare · 01/10/2012 11:06

Yabu to kick off with the family in question. I have no problem with someone who has lost their job claiming benefits for a while whilst they get back on their feet. 26k is really not much money at all and I can quite understand why a family would not save if this was the sum total of their income. Jesus, just be wise someone isn't wealthy it does not mean that they should be condemned to a miserable, penny pinching lifestyle. The odd little treat or meal out is well deserved when you are working hard to support your family.
The benefit claimants who piss most people off are the ones who choose council housing/benefit claiming as a lifestyle with no intention of working or ever giving anything back to the system that supports them. Pretty shameful and pathetic to be in a position where you refuse to support yourself and your family when laziness is your only ailment.....

Peachy · 01/10/2012 11:43

Rubbish outraged; dignity matters, dignity is accepting when you can;t afford stuff but not necessarily wanting every other bugger to know your business and therefore not letting anyone know.

So an analogy from my life- where I can rarely keep on top of the house because the boys trash it every night: I keep the front room, which can be seen from the street, tidy but you wouldn't want to see my bedroom.

And that is how many people are with finances. Plus a lot of stuff that looks expensive can come second hand as well- ds3 is having a TV for Christmas: £15 in charity shop- and as long as you are savvy how would anyone know if you are struggling?

OK for some it doesn't matter but for many of us we don;t want it known: my Mum hasn't a clue, nobody does outside these walls, and I would like it to stay that way. As long as it does, I can cope.

That £80 you are entitled to? It would not be silly to save it in case you need it. trust me from experience, life can dump on you pretty fast- it takes two things together and bang- and savings last far less time than you think, especially as the stuff that takes us by surprise is likely to come with extra costs in itself.

Abitwobblynow · 01/10/2012 12:53

Margerykemp 'the USA barely has a social security system'... oh, dear, I see this is going to be difficult.

The reason, MK, that the Scandinavian countries don't have a problem now is when the sh*t hit the fan (around the time of the Icelandic banking crisis they CUT PUBLIC SPENDING. No, they really, really did.

I am still incensed by that sweeping statement that the global crash wasn't caused by social spending. How to get leftard heads out of their backsides?

[Iain Martin] "Evan Davis [on Radio4] tried manfully to get [Ed Balls] to admit his and Labour's role in the deterioration in the nation's finances and explosion of the national debt. Evan might as well have beaten himself over the head with a copy of Gordon Brown's "Beyond the crash: the first crisis of globalisation."
Balls will take responsibility for Labour's failure on financial regulation. And goodness, he was right at the heart of it. Here he is, as Economic Secretary to the Treasury, talking as late as April 2007. That's five minutes to midnight in terms of the financial crisis: "The Financial Services Authority is working well, and is a world leader in a number of areas ? which can only be good for the competitiveness of the UK financial services sector."
The FSA has itself admitted how woefully deficient it was, with poor monitoring of firms such as RBS, Northern Rock and HBOS. Unfortunately, the Balls explanation for what happened ends with the failure of regulation and the supposedly sudden, unforeseeable accident of a banking crash. There was nothing more that he or Gordon Brown could have done.
But going into the crash the government was spending too much. Spending had risen dramatically from 2001 and the government was recklessly running deficits at the top of a boom. That doesn't mean that increased government spending caused the crash. Of course not. Instead, what should be obvious, is that it left the country poorly prepared for a downturn when it turned up.
This isn't difficult. High spending meant that the sudden collapse in tax revenues as a result of the financial crisis and ensuing recession created an enormous gap between what the government took in and what it was spending, meaning giant deficits.
If spending had been at more sensible levels before the crash, the fall off in revenues would not have had such a dramatic impact and the deficit would have been smaller, meaning that the amount being added to the national debt would have been less than it turned out to be from 2008. If government spending had been considerably lower in the boom years, both the deficit and the debt could have been lower than they are now in the bust.
Incidentally, the British experience wasn't, as Balls likes to suggest, repeated everywhere. Countries such as Canada and Australia [what have I been telling you?] were more ? what's the word? ? prudent. They didn't let their banks run riot and they kept spending and debt under control. Canada's national debt hovers at around 30 per cent of GDP, having been up above 60 per cent in 1997.
The shadow Chancellor cannot, or will not, face up to any of this. He will not admit that there is any connection between what he and Gordon Brown did on spending and on what happened later to the public finances.
I am no psychologist ? although writing about these questions it sometimes feels as though a qualification in that department would come in handy ? but at the root of it all was surely one of the maddest ideas of peacetime politics: the end of boom'n'bust. If your argument was based on the notion that you were a genius who had fixed the economic fundamentals so that good times would not end then you had no reason to worry about the unsustainability of your spending rises. There wouldn't be a downturn, or not a serious one anyway, so just carry on spending.
History demonstrates time and again that believing the good times cannot end, or be interrupted by a reverse, tends to be hubristic hokum. There always have been periodic booms, crashes and panics. There always will be. Anyone who formulates economic policy and ignores this is an egomaniac, a misguided utopian or a fool.
And Ed Balls is no fool. I can only assume that he declines to acknowledge what happened because to do so would be to admit that the project in which he believed for so long ? Gordon Brown and the end of boom'n'bust ? was built on his boss's self-delusion. "

TalkinPeace2 · 01/10/2012 12:55

26k is really not much money at all
its more than half the country earns .......

OP posts:
Abitwobblynow · 01/10/2012 12:57
  • the combined sum of increased US, Portugese, Irish, Italian, Greek, Spanish, and UK government spending, caused the crash.

Countries such as Australia, Canada and South Africa who kept to THATCHERITE economic policy, did not have a crash.

Sorry to upset you all with dry facts.

PropertyNightmare · 01/10/2012 13:00

It might well be more than half the country earns but it clearly is not a hugely generous sum. Hence child tax credits etc being needed to lift children out of poverty.....

Groovee · 01/10/2012 13:04

Ah yes, we have spent all our savings trying to survive the 6 months dh was unemployed as we were entitled to nothing despite dh paying 50% tax for 15 years and national insurance for 25 years.

So yeah we should have spent it on a rainy day Angry

ReallyTired · 01/10/2012 13:07

Contributions based job seekers allowance is not a lot. Given that most average income households pay a lot of tax over a working life time, its only fair they get a little bit back when they need it.

At £71.00 per week for 18 weeks is hardly big money. To be entitlted to that amount you need to be over 25 and have worked continously for the last two years. Its hardly big money.

I think you should save your aggro for those who see benefits as a lifestyle rather than safety net/ cushion for hard times.

Flobbadobs · 01/10/2012 13:26

Did the OP ever answer the question asked a while back about why she had a problem with someone being made redundant and claiming benefits? Might have overlooked it but I can't see the answer...
I have a question of my own for them. What happens when the rainy day has been and gone? What level of poverty has to be reached before someone can claim benefits in their eyes? How many times do the adults in the house have to go without a hot meal just so their children can eat a decent tea? Do you have to buy all clothes from the charity shop for a certain length of time before you can claim enough to buy from an actual shop? How many times can a relative casually drop a cheque in the post 'just to help out' before you can justify being poor enough to claim?
The reason people get sarcastic and pre occupied with goats on threads like this is because they have been done to death, started by people who look down on the type of people who need state help from their lofty position on the highest horse imaginable. I just hope that for your sake this particular high horse doesn't lose a leg...

Flobbadobs · 01/10/2012 13:26

Sorry, lots of questions there written in the vain hope that the OP will read them...

TalkinPeace2 · 01/10/2012 13:33

Flobba
I have NO PROBLEM AT ALL about those who have lost their jobs claiming short term jobseekers allowance - after their redundancy pay has run out of course.
I DO have a problem with people looking first to claiming rather than looking for work.
It takes so blinking long to get claims paid (8-10 weeks for HB for example) that often people will be better off just putting all their effort into looking for other work.

The PROBLEM with the benefits system is that far, far too many people are in it.
The whole tax credits debacle created an atmosphere of 'the government will pick up the tab for tight employers and rising house prices'

And Broon gave out that money by borrowing like fury from our children.
Our children and grandchildren will be paying the PFI bills for another 30 years
Our children and grandchildren will not get any state pension or decent benefits
unless we are willing to make the changes now.

Means testing is grossly inefficient (Crapita and Atos are the only winners there) and family benefits (single parent and CTC) have distorting effects on households.
I'm not sure which countries have it right. But the UK sure does not.

OP posts:
Peachy · 01/10/2012 13:49

RT I agree.

I am alsways interested when teh Thatcher defence is raised; the current DLA system that people hate so much was brought about by Maggie. I am no fan but that's something positive she did that CallMeDave was happy enough to call upon but is now being devastated- two new stories today: a person with no eyes asked to prove they can;t see (?! WTF) and someone with the last stages of MS who has had their DLA dropped and will lose their motorised wheelchair as they were using the disability component for mobility to pay that off.

PIP will help far less people and the more I read of the criteria, the more I learn that the people who have been defrauding teh state effectively will be those least able to lose out- you will need savvy to use the system, and any level of innocence or functional learning disability will work against people it would seem. My son with autism ahs no clue he has a disability; he would be stuffed were we not able toa ct as advocates- and who is to say how long we will bea round?

Anyways.

yes, she did that. She also decimated the lives of many working people, as I witnessed back home; and whilst there may be evidence for mining becoming economically unviable, there was nothing except bile to motivate the way that those areas (some of which are ery close to where I now live) were abndoned, the residents encouraged to claim ESA as a lifestyle.

The sort of thing people accuse Labour of.....

She did a little good, and a lot of bad. I'd rather find a party that just did a lot of good. In the emantime I will vote for the one I think comes closest, becuase we are a long way off what I'd like to see as yet.

Mosman · 01/10/2012 13:52

Bottom line is if my kids were hungry, I would steal and perhaps mug people to feed them, I say this as a fairly mild mannered 5' nothing woman. Benefits basically keep crime down bfcause people aren't desperate and that suits me.

Peachy · 01/10/2012 13:54

Your logic is flawed Talkin

The sensible thing to do,, when processing times are in fact around 12 weeks in many areas, is apply as soon as then start a very definite and strong job search; thus preventing you being in a position down the line where you rack up increased costs due to having run into rent arrears and whatever.

That's just sensible, solid advice. it takes a day at most to get documents togetehr and apply for things, and a phone call is all it takes to withdraw a claim if works comes along. And of course the simple truth is that work may not, with the situation the way it is at the moment. Running into rent arrears and needing eviction or whatever will NOT help the state at all. AS indeed will cutting benefits too much not help the state; poverty causes rises in costs to health care, education, lhousing, ong term claims, disability- and I don;t think this bunch ahve got the balancing act at all correct.

Peachy · 01/10/2012 13:55

Good point Mosman

Add crime to the list of ways poverty costs the state please.

ReallyTired · 01/10/2012 14:30

The job centre tries to help people who are registered unemployed. If you don't register then you don't get the help.

Job centre advisors aren't 100% evil. They are there to help people get back on their feet. Sometimes there are courses that people can do or someone can look at their CV and spot the spelling mistakes.

monkeysbignuts · 01/10/2012 14:59

why is it in recessions everyone points the finger at people like families that need tax credits or those who have lost their job and need help.
We seem to be turning into a back stabbing cut throat nation, look out for ones self. I hate it

hoodoo12345 · 01/10/2012 15:22

Basically everything monkeysbignuts said.

We seem to be living in a "lets stamp on everyone" society nowadays, reminds me of last time the cunts conservatives were in power.

Pendeen · 01/10/2012 15:24

" 26k is really not much money at all "
its more than half the country earns

I did think that as well TalkinPeace2

Here (Cornwall) that is a very good wage indeed.

FrothyOM · 01/10/2012 15:40
Biscuit
FrothyOM · 01/10/2012 15:41

Are there still people who think everyone one benefits gets 26k?!

I have 2 kids and used to get nowhere near this when I was unemployed, and that was before the benefit cap!

SammyTheSwedishSquirrel · 01/10/2012 16:00

When I was on benefits I spent the winter telling everyone that I preferred wearing flipflops because they were more comfortable. Didn't want to admit that I couldn't afford to buy myself a pair of shoes. Also had to sit in the dark at night so the electric didn't run out and the freezer defrost. Didn't have curtains, carpets, a tv, a phone or a coat either. I'm completely perplexed at the notion that living on benefits is a lifestyle choice. You don't live on benefits, you survive.

monkeysbignuts · 01/10/2012 16:02

hoodooits crap isn't it, every man for himself society, this is not a democracy its borderline communist!

Pendeen · 01/10/2012 16:36

I think it was PropertyNightmare wh said it isn't much...

LesleyPumpshaft · 01/10/2012 16:39

Why shouldn't we all claim benefits and have two foreign holidays a year, a massive flat screen and goat? Is that not what benefits are for? Confused