to think benefits are a safety net against poverty, not a cushion against an uncomfortable life ?

[TalkinPeace2]

Prompted by a thread where somebody said "DH has lost his job, what benefits are we entitled to?"

Sorry, but its the duty of ALL those on more than average wages (£26k per household) to put money aside for a rainy day.
No wonder the country is up to its eyes in debt if people first think about benefits rather than self reliance.

The benefit system should be to prevent true poverty, no more.

The American system has too many gaps. Most European systems, including that in the UK, provide far too comfortable a cushion, at far too high a cost to the next generation (as historically current over generous benefits have been kicked down the road to be paid for by our children who will never be entitled to such things).

I totally agree that the trouble with the benefits system is that there are too many people in it. It needs to be sorted out.

Frothy
anybody who has ever had to LIVE on benefits knows that they aim to bring the working household income up to £17000.

Only central London MN posters, politicians and media types think £26k is a low wage.
The rest of us know that it is the median household income.

PS for those happy to roast me : DH and I are self employed. No holiday pay, no sick pay, no pension, and between us we are £5 over the limit so we get no benefits other than Child benefit.

I don't understand all the threads on here started by people who think they are superior to others who are having a bad run of things.

DP was made redundant from a senior position when the recession kicked off. Meanwhile, I became very poorly with a kidney problem, had a period of severe mental illness etc.

Do people like the OP think they are immune to changes in fortune. You never know what is just around the corner and anyone could have an accident, illness or they could lose their job. What happened to people valuing compassion and empathy?

Me and DP are tax payers, so what? We don't expect a fanfare and medal for it, so I don't know why anyone else does.

'I must say I don't quite understand how people can be earning £52,000 between them and not to be able to get married or buy their own house. Not saying it's not true but I don't understand it. '

Because 52K a year is not 'cleared' income, this is pre tax and NI contributions.

I earn £31,350 a year pre tax, but after tax, NI, student loan repayment, pension deduction and travel costs (work only) I take home around £1700, my DH takes home around £1200.

We live in the south east, our mortgage is £900, childcare is £800 - £1000 per month, council tax is £135, electricity is £80 (up to £120 in the coldest months), tv licence is £12, various insurances are £40, the car eats up £300 but is needed for DH to work, food shopping is £50-60 per week, debt repayments are £75, £10 per month bank account fee, £20 pet food, £30 on mine and DH's phone bills, we save £100, then there are clothes when needed, any birthdays, christmas, saving for annual holiday, haircuts, any activities for the DC, never mind if an appliance breaks and needs repairing or replacing, or a piece of furniture is needed. Car tax and MOT annually also eat into this.

It's not hard to see why a couple on that income would struggle to afford to get married, or even save up to buy their own home if they are renting at a similar price to our mortgage. We would love to move, but don't have that much left over to actually save, £100 per month is slow going.

So are you happy to leave all of the decisions about benefits cuts to politicians without input from those who elect them?

CallmeDave's advisers read Mumsnet. They will take the pickiness of most of the posts on this thread as carte blanche to carry on slashing and burning the benefits system because THEY are so rich they will never need it.

PS for those happy to roast me : DH and I are self employed. No holiday pay, no sick pay, no pension, and between us we are £5 over the limit so we get no benefits other than Child benefit.

So your household income is well above 26k and you're claiming benefits. Your preaching about duty, self reliance and benefits only being to prevent true poverty is hypocritical. There's a surprise .

"claiming benefits"
have you ever tried to opt out of a non means tested one - and still get a school place?

i posted this 3 or 4 times earlier in the thread and now we have forever greek going on about "immigrants"
Proof that some people just see what they want to see.
So just for you forever here it is again!

Talkin Peace said If the Poles can take jobs why can the English not beat then to it.

Well Talkin the "Poles" as you so charmingly call them are having as bad a time here as the rest of the country and here comes a copy and paste to illustrate that fact.

A large crowd in the Hope Centre are from Romania, and say they are waiting for food because collecting scrap metal and washing cars isn't enough to make ends meet. A bigger number is there because of benefit delays and cuts, or simply because they are no longer able to make their low wages stretch.

You don't opt out of child benefit. To get it you have to fill out the application form (CH2) and sent it off along with the child's birth certificate. You opted in and claimed what you were entitled to and now you're here bitching about other people who do the same. You are a hypocrite.

Talkin no I am not happy about that at all, which is why I make sure I campiagn for the changes I beelive in: doubt we'd agree what they are though.

Which shows how different people can be, becuase wwe also have a self employed family member. Dh sued to be really resentful of benefits- life ahs a tendency to shite on people though, make them see the light (or rather, my version of the light) often as not- is his case it did.

I am on benefits. They are a safety net, they are not a cushion against an uncomfortable life. Life on benefits is not comfortable.

sammy
I do not quite see why Child Benefit makes me a hypocrite for wishing the government would sort the much bigger benefit issues out.
How many parents DO NOT claim it - especially as for those of us not rich enough to afford private school, it is essential for proving addresses for school admissions.

Darkeyes
the only person I see talking about immigrants is you.
And as I am a first generation economic migrant, its not a line of discussion I tend to pursue.

forevergreekMon 01-Oct-12 09:32:51

I think a lot of people in the uk do think they 'need' certain things to live

For example on here a measure of so called poverty is a plasma tv, having a car of x years old and eating meat evey day

We are fortunate to have a decent income. We can afford holidays and nice restaurants. However, we choose to live in a one bed flat ( london) instead of scrimping and getting into debt with a 2/3 bed which is what we would get if we had a council house. We eat veggie half the week as we feel it's healthier, we don't own a car as its pointless in London, and we don't own a tv as work a ridiculous amount of hours that we barely have time to watch.

None of the able mean we are in poverty. It means if we spent £1000 a year on car insurance, a £1000 on petrol. £120 on tv license and say £300 extra a year on meat every day. Then we would be almost £2500 worse off. Upgrading to a 2 bed flat instead of one bed and using lounge with soda bed as sleeping space would easily be £3000 min a year more for our location.
That's £55000 in savings that many people could make by choosing a different lifestyle. That is why we can afford holidays/ nice clothes and meals out without worrying

That is also why many immigrants work for less and still don't moan as they don't expect everything thrown at them. They know try have x budget which may only be a two room place for 7, but don't demand a bigger place as their 7 year old has to share with 12 year old.

Im not benefit bashing. People can choose to do what they like, ( or not choose if unfortunate circumstances). But I think that saying nobody can poss save for a rainy day is a tad ott. Many could lose car, downsize dramatically until circumstances change again.

Fifth paragraph down Talkin Peace i am NOT the only one taliking about immigrants at all and i am NOT the one who brought it up.
You are just narked because i was able to back my argument up using the example of what is happening at the Hope Centre.

forevergreekMon 01-Oct-12 09:32:51

I think a lot of people in the uk do think they 'need' certain things to live

For example on here a measure of so called poverty is a plasma tv, having a car of x years old and eating meat evey day

We are fortunate to have a decent income. We can afford holidays and nice restaurants. However, we choose to live in a one bed flat ( london) instead of scrimping and getting into debt with a 2/3 bed which is what we would get if we had a council house. We eat veggie half the week as we feel it's healthier, we don't own a car as its pointless in London, and we don't own a tv as work a ridiculous amount of hours that we barely have time to watch.

None of the able mean we are in poverty. It means if we spent £1000 a year on car insurance, a £1000 on petrol. £120 on tv license and say £300 extra a year on meat every day. Then we would be almost £2500 worse off. Upgrading to a 2 bed flat instead of one bed and using lounge with soda bed as sleeping space would easily be £3000 min a year more for our location.
That's £55000 in savings that many people could make by choosing a different lifestyle. That is why we can afford holidays/ nice clothes and meals out without worrying

That is also why many immigrants work for less and still don't moan as they don't expect everything thrown at them. They know try have x budget which may only be a two room place for 7, but don't demand a bigger place as their 7 year old has to share with 12 year old.

Im not benefit bashing. People can choose to do what they like, ( or not choose if unfortunate circumstances). But I think that saying nobody can poss save for a rainy day is a tad ott. Many could lose car, downsize dramatically until circumstances change again.

Fifth paragraph down Talkin Peace i am NOT the only one taliking about immigrants at all and i am NOT the one who brought it up.
You are just narked because i was able to back my argument up using the example of what is happening at the Hope Centre.

forevergreekMon 01-Oct-12 09:32:51

I think a lot of people in the uk do think they 'need' certain things to live

For example on here a measure of so called poverty is a plasma tv, having a car of x years old and eating meat evey day

We are fortunate to have a decent income. We can afford holidays and nice restaurants. However, we choose to live in a one bed flat ( london) instead of scrimping and getting into debt with a 2/3 bed which is what we would get if we had a council house. We eat veggie half the week as we feel it's healthier, we don't own a car as its pointless in London, and we don't own a tv as work a ridiculous amount of hours that we barely have time to watch.

None of the able mean we are in poverty. It means if we spent £1000 a year on car insurance, a £1000 on petrol. £120 on tv license and say £300 extra a year on meat every day. Then we would be almost £2500 worse off. Upgrading to a 2 bed flat instead of one bed and using lounge with soda bed as sleeping space would easily be £3000 min a year more for our location.
That's £55000 in savings that many people could make by choosing a different lifestyle. That is why we can afford holidays/ nice clothes and meals out without worrying

That is also why many immigrants work for less and still don't moan as they don't expect everything thrown at them. They know try have x budget which may only be a two room place for 7, but don't demand a bigger place as their 7 year old has to share with 12 year old.

Im not benefit bashing. People can choose to do what they like, ( or not choose if unfortunate circumstances). But I think that saying nobody can poss save for a rainy day is a tad ott. Many could lose car, downsize dramatically until circumstances change again.

Fifth paragraph down Talkin Peace i am NOT the only one taliking about immigrants at all and i am NOT the one who brought it up.
You are just narked because i was able to back my argument up using the example of what is happening at the Hope Centre.

forevergreekMon 01-Oct-12 09:32:51

I think a lot of people in the uk do think they 'need' certain things to live

For example on here a measure of so called poverty is a plasma tv, having a car of x years old and eating meat evey day

We are fortunate to have a decent income. We can afford holidays and nice restaurants. However, we choose to live in a one bed flat ( london) instead of scrimping and getting into debt with a 2/3 bed which is what we would get if we had a council house. We eat veggie half the week as we feel it's healthier, we don't own a car as its pointless in London, and we don't own a tv as work a ridiculous amount of hours that we barely have time to watch.

None of the able mean we are in poverty. It means if we spent £1000 a year on car insurance, a £1000 on petrol. £120 on tv license and say £300 extra a year on meat every day. Then we would be almost £2500 worse off. Upgrading to a 2 bed flat instead of one bed and using lounge with soda bed as sleeping space would easily be £3000 min a year more for our location.
That's £55000 in savings that many people could make by choosing a different lifestyle. That is why we can afford holidays/ nice clothes and meals out without worrying

That is also why many immigrants work for less and still don't moan as they don't expect everything thrown at them. They know try have x budget which may only be a two room place for 7, but don't demand a bigger place as their 7 year old has to share with 12 year old.

Im not benefit bashing. People can choose to do what they like, ( or not choose if unfortunate circumstances). But I think that saying nobody can poss save for a rainy day is a tad ott. Many could lose car, downsize dramatically until circumstances change again.

Fifth paragraph down Talkin Peace i am NOT the only one taliking about immigrants at all and i am NOT the one who brought it up.
You are just narked because i was able to back my argument up using the example of what is happening at the Hope Centre.

forevergreekMon 01-Oct-12 09:32:51

I think a lot of people in the uk do think they 'need' certain things to live

For example on here a measure of so called poverty is a plasma tv, having a car of x years old and eating meat evey day

We are fortunate to have a decent income. We can afford holidays and nice restaurants. However, we choose to live in a one bed flat ( london) instead of scrimping and getting into debt with a 2/3 bed which is what we would get if we had a council house. We eat veggie half the week as we feel it's healthier, we don't own a car as its pointless in London, and we don't own a tv as work a ridiculous amount of hours that we barely have time to watch.

None of the able mean we are in poverty. It means if we spent £1000 a year on car insurance, a £1000 on petrol. £120 on tv license and say £300 extra a year on meat every day. Then we would be almost £2500 worse off. Upgrading to a 2 bed flat instead of one bed and using lounge with soda bed as sleeping space would easily be £3000 min a year more for our location.
That's £55000 in savings that many people could make by choosing a different lifestyle. That is why we can afford holidays/ nice clothes and meals out without worrying

That is also why many immigrants work for less and still don't moan as they don't expect everything thrown at them. They know try have x budget which may only be a two room place for 7, but don't demand a bigger place as their 7 year old has to share with 12 year old.

Im not benefit bashing. People can choose to do what they like, ( or not choose if unfortunate circumstances). But I think that saying nobody can poss save for a rainy day is a tad ott. Many could lose car, downsize dramatically until circumstances change again.

Fifth paragraph down Talkin Peace i am NOT the only one taliking about immigrants at all and i am NOT the one who brought it up.
You are just narked because i was able to back my argument up using the example of what is happening at the Hope Centre.

Because you're preaching self reliance and not wanting people with incomes over 26k to claim what they are entitled to. While doing exactly what you're judging others for doing.

Definition of hypocrite:

'The benefit system should be to prevent true poverty, no more'

Or are you saying that you only claimed child benefit prior to school applications, as it was necessary, and have now opted out once your child's place has been secured?

Oh and before you start the reason that has posted so many times is because i am on Talk Talk.

Oh and before you start the reason that has posted so many times is because i am on Talk Talk.

sorry,
I did not read the posts that went on this morning.
and I'm not in the least bit narked about the hope centre as I have no independent information about it

It is pathetic the way that anyone who has an opinion on benefits that doesn't tally with the MN leftie socialists gets pulled up about child benefit.

There is a major difference between someone that pays income tax and NI a d then claims CB for their children, and someone who just about pays VAT and lives off of tax credits, housing benefit, council tax benefit and income support.

Are people really so stupid that they can't see that major difference?

Maybe you didnt read the posts which went on this morning. But in that case you had NO right to accuse me of being the only one to bring it up.
Especially as you are the one who wrote this which is why i mentioned the Hope Centre in the first place!

TalkinPeace2Sun 30-Sep-12 18:19:12

I care about who gets what benefit because there are too many funds going to those who do not need
(non means tested fuel benefits being spent at Majestic)
too much persecution of those who really need - ATOS dodgy tests of the disabled
too much money siphoned out of the system in 'management fees' - do you KNOW how much Crapita get for running that blooming WTC system
and not enough going to those who really need,
and not in a way that actually helps them to break the cycle.

I could not give a shit what telly they have.
I'm more interested to know if they are motivated to watch decent stuff on it an look for ways out of their predicaments
and FFS if the Poles can take jobs, why can the English not beat them to it :
supermarket cleaning is not high skilled, but it DOES pay less than JSA +HB - = the benefit trap ...

Except that's not the group the OP was on about though was it. She's on about people earning above average salaries and being outraged at them asking what they're entitled to because it's their responsibility to be self reliant. So her claiming what she is entitled to, while being in the same wage bracket is very relevant to what the thread is about.

^"I DO have a problem with people looking first to claiming rather than looking for work.
It takes so blinking long to get claims paid (8-10 weeks for HB for example) that often people will be better off just putting all their effort into looking for other work."^

So rather than take into account the long waiting times you think it would be better to search for work for a while first, then when it's looking pretty hopeless apply for benefits and wait 2-3 months for the benefits to start? Surely the best solution there is to apply when you lose your job (while also searching for work, you do know you can do both simultaneously right? Hence the job seekers part of JSA) and if you get a job before the claim is processed then just cancel the claim?

FWIW I tried the first option. Bearing in mind I was anorexic at the time and only eating 1 slice of toast a day, I still ran out of money long before my claim came through. On top of that I could not afford to attend any interviews, so I actually ended up out of work for much longer.

Plus I had to get a loan in order to make it to work for the whole of my first month, due to having to use all my savings while the claim was processing.

If I'd claimed the minute I was made redundant I could have used those savings to fund my first month in a new job, afforded travel to interviews, and ate.