For thinking i shouldn't be getting constantly pestered by the local nurse and GP team to get my daughter immunises when i've repeatedly told them my answer is no?

[Lowla]

My daughter is 4. She got all her jabs as a baby, but i stopped at the MMR one. Since we missed the appointment, i've been getting loads of letters to invite us to the clinic for the MMR jab and now her school booster jab for some other virus. (Hib or something like that).

I've phoned the GP and asked them not to send any more letters out as i've chosen not to get her immunised any further for my own personal reasons, and worries over her last reactions to the jabs. And now i've got some nurse calling me asking to do a home visit next week to 'check on me and dd'. I asked 'is this about the jabs?' and she said, rather reluctantly, 'yes'.

AIBU for feeling like they should respect my decision?

Sorry for the bad grammar. Writing this in a rush as i have to run and get dd from school.

And shouting at her instead of suggesting alternatives is better? Honestly, what do you hope to achieve? You know I agree with you. I've posted linking to the thread about the deaths from the whooping cough epidemic before you began posting, I stated that I'd caught it and my son hadn't because he was vaccinated (and while I don't for a second pretend I was as ill as your child, or that being ill yourself is anything like as bad as seeing your child ill, whooping cough is nasty at any age and completely knocked me for six for two solid months, as I stated) I've gone through the fact that even those kids whose febrility may cause harm would be better off vaccinated because the diseases in question would all guarantee high fevers. You honestly couldn't find someone more in favour of vaccination. Seriously. You couldn't. And I have made that clear repeatedly here.

I'm trying to offer the OP ideas on how she can reassure herself, given she specifically said she hasn't ruled it out forever, just while her DD is so young. She is not a strong opponent of vaccination in general. And no, her practice may well not have discussed it with her, because she may well just not have engaged with them at all rather than deal with the pressure, and because some practices just aren't very good. I'm simply trying to suggest ways forwards that might achieve something - checking immunity, asking to talk to a specialist, generally seeing if she can move on positively so her child is protected, and thus so are ours, and the children of people like Demented whose kids can't be immunised. And I am baffled as to why you are so outraged and offended by that.

Perfect No, he wasn't struck off for being wrong. Neither was he struck off because his findings have not been reproduced & have largely been debunked. This is common and all part of the scientific method, not something that people get struck off for.

He was struck off because the GMC found against him on 4 counts of dishonestly and 12 of abuse of children. If this doesn't say something about his "moral fibre", I can't imagine what would.

He's not just a misguided doctor/scientist who got it wrong, I'm afraid. The whole episode has been described in the BMJ as "the greatest medical hoax of the past 100 years".

The more "refusers" who know & understand this, the better. In my opinion.

@perfect I am neither outraged nor offended by you. Some of the other posters have outraged me, including the OP, and one other poster has offended me. But not you and I haven't given any indication that that's the case. I don't however think that being an apologist for the OP would be helping the situation if she was still reading the thread. She isn't though. She clearly wasn't looking for advice merely positive reinforcement.

No, I don't feel differently regards our choice to not vaccinate, don't get me wrong, I am wary of them catching WC, I wouldn't wish pertussis on anyone and for babies it is especially horrible. MY DC are older so are at a lesser risk, again boils down to risk for us. For example if bird flu mutated and a pandemic ensued, I would be first in the queue for a flu jab, as would my DC.

@perfect and of course it's now that its important children do get vaccinated against WC. Some unspecified time in the future isn't going to help halt the spread of the current epidemic.

Oh - and you're right. Offering solutions rather than berating is better - but I think people are rather pissed off at the fact that she's not even attempted to educate herself about the issue ("injecting bacteria" ) & seems to be taking a "why should I care about anyone else's child?" attitude.

I pay income tax and DS has had all his vaccinations. This is presumably because I am a plebeian who can't afford a private education for my child. These threads always go fucking mental and I am bad-temperedly wishing that some of the posters above would put a in it.

@demented. Ah. So your kids are older, less at risk themselves but much more likely to act as carriers infecting the younger children who have been vaccinated, but whose protection has waned, and who are still highly vulnerable to the worst aspects of the disease. Like my DS was. And you're fine with that. Ok.

That I don't understand at all. Particularly in the light of the fact that you would be happy to vaccinate your supposedly vaccine- vulnerable kids against other diseases (using what would have to be brand new and therefore untested vaccines). Perfect - that's pretty outrageous, no?

@crikey and it appears she's not the only one who takes that attitude. Hence we have an epidemic. :(

dev9aug "Lol @ GP's as experts, most of them are anything but, and I speak as someone who has had a fair share of dealings with them."

Experts? No. More experience than you in the matter of medicine? Yes, unless you are a HCP yourself, in which case, I take that back.

Also, I LOL @ people who think reading baised info online makes them 'informed'.

Crikey, please read what I said, because you read what you expected to and ignored my actual words. I quote:

He was struck off for unethical methodology, not for being wrong. The being wrong can happen to any researcher in any field, there's no shame in it, of itself - and it is all that probably matters to a vaccinating parent: his error, and their child's safety. Not his moral fibre or lack thereof.

I'm fully aware of what he did. I know what happened. Believe me, I do. My point is that it doesn't MATTER in terms of the core fact: he is wrong, he was wrong, the MMR is safe.

The reason I avoid vaccine threads is everyone reads what they expect to read, has the same screaming matches, and nothing ever moves forward. It's wearing.

She was looking for agreement with her indignation at being contacted by her gps health team.
I think telling her to go and speak to them, to not be defensive about it and discuss her reasons for not vaccinating was probably a positive response.
I think I said as much.
Shouting at her that she was thick, selfish, endangering children and, latterly, a potential child killer and in one magnificently awful post, responsible for harming 'millions' of people, was probably going to do little except make her even more defensive.

I found loads of posts deeply offensive. Just finding one or two offensive would have been pretty good.

I haven't read the whole thread, but have read the OPs final post.

OP your GP will have full details of the reaction your dd had to previous vaccines. As with all things in medicine, the benefits of the vaccine need to be weighed against the risks. I believe that the benefit of vaccinating your dd and protecting her from these diseases, and potentially protecting any of her unborn children in the future, in the case of rubella, outweighs the risks of her having the vaccine. The GP would not have called her for immunisation if the risk outweighed the benefit. I am glad to hear you will speak to the nurse who will be able to go through the details and discuss it with you. Please go into the discussion with an open mind, and remember you don't have to make a decision there and then, you can discuss with family etc and make an informed decision. Hope you keep reading, even if no longer posting.

OP, on the whole I don't have a problem with people refusing unnecessary medical procedures for their children, and I don't think they should be hounded about it. However I do have a problem with the fact that many people who refuse vaccinations (other than people with immuno-compromised children etc), and in fact humans in general, don't seem able to judge relative risk very well.

As a scientist, I am also automatically sceptical when people say that they have done "research" into having vaccinations. I wouldn't confidently be able to assess the quality of quite a lot of research in the subfields of my own discipline that are outside my expertise. I wouldn't dream of attempting to do it in a discipline I had not trained in.

Isn't this why whopping cough is killing young babies?

Bird flu has a 70+% mortality rate, the risks of vaccine damage in that instance would be a lot less than the very, very high chance of dying. Again boils down to risk.
I haven't said at any point that I was fine with anything. My DC are under 5, so not that much older. All I have stated is that for me the priority is to my DC with our family history, that doesn't mean I am fine with it. I can only do what is best for my DC. You asked if this epidemic has changed my views to not vaccinate, it hasn't. I see daily the damage that vaccination has caused my family.

One aspect that people seem to be ignoring is that the HCPs in question have a responsibility for all the children in their care. They know there's an epidemic at the moment. They know the risks. Damn right they should be hounding everyone due for a jab to have the jab. Because they know full well that a lot of babies, who havent yet had the jabs, and a lot of 9-15 (ish) year olds are hideously exposed at the moment. They don't have the protection that age generally (not always) confers against the worst aspects of whooping cough. They don't have the protection from their jabs (if they had them) because we now know the jabs don't protect for 10 years. And the more people who refuse to vaccinate, the less they are protected by herd immunity. And we have an epidemic. :(

Ay HCPs who aren't 'hounding people' (such an emotive phrase) given the circumstances we have in the UK at the moment are frankly derelict in their duty of care.

I had whooping cough when I was 11. With every coughing fit I honestly thought I would never catch my breath again and die on the bathroom floor. I was off school for 6 months and could only keep down soup. I had my son vaccinated because of this, I was nervous about his reaction to them of course, but the memory of those coughing fits made me see sense. Apologies to the poster with the disabled sister as a result of the vaccinations, I'm sorry that this happened to your family.

I agree with Mordion, HCPs should be following up non-vaccinaters - in a firm, polite, non-houndy way.

I'm fully aware of what he did. I know what happened. Believe me, I do. My point is that it doesn't MATTER in terms of the core fact: he is wrong, he was wrong, the MMR is safe

I think you are wrong. The MMR is safe for the majority. It is not safe for everyone. That needs to be acknowledged before anyone with reservations about vaccinations takes any of these valid counter arguments seriously.

This banging on about it being safe is what made me go for singles. If the people that were supposed to know more than me couldn't even admit to the most basic of facts, why would I trust them when I know they have another agenda?

@pandemonium I seriously doubt whether they are 'hounding' her. By any accepted definition of the word. They are following up, like they should.

And as I said, it sometimes reads like being right, or perhaps more fairly and more accurately being angry, matters more than actually encouraging someone to find out if it is safe - or even necessary, given it's a booster - to vaccinate their child. Sorry, but I can't fathom that. That isn't "being an apologist". That's "trying to have a conversation, rather than hurling insults at someone."

You cannot expect someone to listen to your perspective or care about your views if you shout at them. Basic principle of diplomacy. You have some hope she may look into the medical realities for her specific child if you approach her like an actual human being, instead of a witch. Of course I understand your feelings. You have been through hell, and it was and should have been an avoidable hell, and all because of people who have not taken the time to correctly inform themselves on vaccine safety, and how lethal preventable epidemics can be. My own MIL is one of them. She is militantly anti-vaccine, and when we discovered this (when DS was born and the mission to "save" him began) and it emerged that DH had never had any vaccines, he went straight to the GP and had all those they wanted him to get - he and DS have shared many vaccine appointments. I promise, I get it. I do, do, do know that your son was ill because other people played Russian Roulette with his health as well as their own children's. But yelling is not going to change that for someone else's kid. The OP is scared. She saw her baby looking desperately unwell, she reacted badly more than once, she is frightened of her being ill again, and all the concern about other people's kids in the world shrinks alongside fear for your own - after all, your fear for another suffering as yours did underpins your own strong feelings here, because you inevitably identify with them. I identify with them, as a mother to a small child. That's human. But my child has sauntered through his vaccinations, and hers has suffered, and that will inevitably alter perspective. She may change her mind if she talks to someone appropriately qualified, who can assuage her fears - she may not. But isn't it worth a shot at trying to persuade her?

I'm going to bow out now, because these threads never achieve anything but upset. But OP please, please if you do read this, get your DD's immunity checked, and then if not immune, ask to speak to someone you can trust.

Perfect Sorry. I misunderstood the thrust of your post. Was not deliberate, I promise.

Having said that, I think we shall have to agree to disagree. I think, for most lay people, talking about "flawed research & methodology" probably wouldn't mean much. And people can be so distrustful of science ("big pharma faked swine flu to push vaccines blah blah") that it would have no impact really. Fraud, dishonesty & child abuse (which actually is what happened) is more, shall we say, hard hitting - and true. Because however we look at it, Wakefield is the person responsible for this, and his motivations matter when you explain to someone why there isn't, and never has been, any link between autism and MMR.

Like I say, we'll have to disagree. I'm with you on everything else though.

I think you are wrong. The MMR is safe for the majority. It is not safe for everyone. That needs to be acknowledged before anyone with reservations about vaccinations takes any of these valid counter arguments seriously.

Uh huh. I will cut and paste from a previous post.

I do think most kids should get the required vaccinations to protect themselves, the wider community, and those kids who can't be vaccinated. (And the last group would include children who have siblings who've reacted very badly to a vaccination, or who have themselves reacted badly.) I do tend to be a bit aggravated by people who are almost religious on opposing vaccination, though. Deaths from measles halved in the USA inside 2 years of the vaccine first being used. That's a lot of young lives saved. And as has been mentioned, most vaccine damage is caused by febrility - and the illnesses vaccinated against all cause very high temperatures in most cases. It's an immune response, after all.

Vaccines harm very few, and diseases very many. That's no consolation if your child is in the former group, any more than the reverse is. But I personally think anyone refusing to vaccinate should have the opportunity to talk to an immunologist on the phone or via email, instead of being patronised by a nurse/GP. It might increase vaccination rates, and also identify more clearly where there is a genuine reason not to. And I think vaccination rates would rise, too.

And at this point, I am bowing out, because I have never been a huge fan of brick walls colliding with my head.

It is not safe for everyone.

Neither are apples, aspirin, antibiotics, strawberries, stairs, cars, Nivea skin cream. Even sunlight isn't safe for everyone.

It's about risk. And the risks of MMR are not nil - but they are vanishingly small.