to ask how you feel about Scottish Independence?

[PierreBourdieu]

Particularly looking for opinions from South of the Border, but all opinions welcome. My FB is awash with Independence fever after the rally in Edinburgh yesterday. As a Scotwoman I am always interested to hear the views of the English and get that perspective. I'll not disclose whether I'm pro or anti as I suppose it's not relevant here, also not looking for a bunfight! Care to share?

Penny - I don't know about you but I don't want to be hearing the same old debate for years. If we get the chance it either works or doesn't, but at least it will be done with! Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Ned is a negative term here in inversneckie!

So, londonone can you identify which cultural aspects define you as British? Maybe then we can compare and contrast ideas of national identity.

London there are many dialects in Scotland as there are in England I'm sure.

I thought 'Ned'' came from 'ne'er do well' so was more on a par with 'yob' in England.

If you're looking for a term we don't like being used to define us, 'Scotch' is a good place to start. 'Weegie' is typically Scottish, having a wee dig at each other, generally used by the Burgers ;)

also having lived in scotland and one of the islands for 14years, it will all be centralised in edinburgh with MSP taking a wee tour of highlands and islands when its election time

to people living in Uist Stranraer, Kirkwall etc, they will feel that" Edinburgh" takes control and decides and it will be to the advantage of central belt
as people complain about things being londoncentric they will complain about edinburghcentric and they will of course be right, that's just how it is large sparsely populated remote areas they feel under -represented it takes 4 hours by car to get from end end of argyll and bute constituency to the other, in some parts of london you could probably walk across the constituency in less than 1 hour

this is a sentiment I heard very frequently on the west coast islands and remote parts of the mainland, there are many parts of scotland that are 5 hours drive away from edinburgh/ glasgow, it takes as long to drive from carlisle to thurso as it does from carlisle to south coast

the differences culturally between scots and english are no greater than those between highlanders/lowlanders Gaelic is just as much a foreign language to most scots as french is, Gaelic is culturally significant but in numbers of numbers of native regular speakers about 5% of population

Middle class kids 'attracted to ned and chav culture

They say Ned also comes from Non Educated Delinquent.

Yes, londonone, I was just worried I'd made myself sound insular. I'm not, honestly!!

Every so often, I'll read something on Mumsnet which defines something which is part of my culture as "foreign" E.g. Kids going out dressed up at Hallowe'en. Somewill will always say it's an American import. Not here, it isn't. We've guised on Hallowe'en for many years - Queen Victoria mentions Hallowe'en guising somewhere.

So sometimes I can't define myself as "British" because my culture includes stuff which many British people regard as "not British" IYSWIM.

I agree sarah, from my experience a Glaswegian has way more in common culturally with a Mancunian than an Orkney Islander (Orkner?).

Halloween is Irish in origin.

I suppose sectarianism is an aspect of Scottish culture you don't see in England.

London, why do you agree only that the legal system is different? Why, for example, do you think the education system isn't different? Your example of Essex and Sussex (or whatever is was) having different education systems is just wrong. Yes, there are some administrative differences between regions in England and Wales, some anomalies like grammar schools in some areas. But all E&W schools take GCSEs and A-levels, are subject to the national curriculum, have to suffer whatever Gove imposes on them, etc. The Scottish education system is completely different and always has been - it's been administered separately ever since the union. The curriculum is totally different, in detail and in ethos, the exam system is totally different, entry age is different, etc, etc. The school system is no closer to the English & W system than to many other developed countries. And luckily for us, Gove has no authority in Scotland. Scottish universities do four year degrees and include a broad syllabus where you can choose some modules totally unrelated to your degree subject for the first two years - in some ways they are more similar to American universities.

The two countries are just fundamentally and essentially different in this respect. You comparing it to differences entered counties shows you actually have no idea about these differences.

Yes Sqoosh that is apparently the meaning it is generally used to define unruly children (to be polite).

Could people stop saying they, them, us and we it is really annoying.

And an I the only person who thinks this thread is really odd given that the OP hasn't been back and wouldn't state anti/pro because is not relevant?!... Yet its relevant to ask others

Well I guess, democracy, a long history with plenty of internal conflict, beautiful countryside from rolling hills to dramatic mountains, language, bbc, melting pot with lots of immigration, tolerance, industrialisation, Protest snd the fact that when I travel around the world and have to fill in an immigration form I put my nationality as British. Maybe I am greedy but I consider the beautiful open spaces of the highlands to be as much a part o my identity as the bustle of London.

waves at posters

I am still here and have been reading avidly! Thank you for the input. I didn't want to state whether I was pro or anti as I didn't want it to colour the way the thread went. For example, had I stated in the first post that I was pro indy it might have attracted just an 'anti' reaction (we all know how MN likes to jump on people!) and vice versa.
I've been having some lively debates on FB today with Scots and I suppose I just wanted to test the water of the English here steal some of your arguments to stimulate the debate. Hope no one minds?

Also, the Northern Irish issue is a total red herring. The principal of self-determination - that of any country in the union being able to opt out if they want to - should apply just as much as it does in Scotland. But in Northern Ireland, opinion is strongly divided along sectarian lines, with the Protestants (currently the majority) strongly desiring the union and the Catholics generally preferring union with Ireland. The reason the British army has fought to keep NI in the union is because that is what the majority of the population in NI wants. If this changes, and NI organises a referendum for independence or union with Ireland, and it passes, I don't think there'd be any question of the UK remaining.

Luckily, in Scotland the independence question isn't linked to sectarianism, so althought opinion is divided and feelings are strong, there's unlikely to be any blood-shed.

Iismum, I am well aware of differences in the education systems however I was simply reflecting that there are also differences within systems as well as differences between them.

NHS Scotland is completely seperate to its English counterpart ( thank God.)

There are many things I find baffling about Scotyish culture but the Sectarianism, the emphasis on different schooling for Catholic children, different teachers etc, very sad.

I agree. I would hope that independence would bring a total separation of Church and state with truly secular state education. But that is a whole other argument
:-)

I think, londonone, that the underlying ethos of education is different. When the Scottish educational system was established (Education Act 1596) there was a belief that intelligence was a national resource and that poor clever boys as well as rich clever boys were obliged to go to school, University etc in order to serve their country. It's maybe been more of a theory that the way it's worked out in actual fact, but the underlying ethos still lingers on, in the fact that most Scottish children attend state comprehensive schools, and the idea of University fees is wildly unpopular. Whereas England seems to have regarded education as a class thing; the wealthier the family, the better the education.

I think there are millions of people in England who would align themselves with the so called Scottish view of education rather than what you consider to be the english view.

That is not the point. The point is the English and Scottish educational systems are fundamentally different, due to the fact the two countries do not have a shared history.

Well the exams you take are different in Scotland: different curriculum and assessment.

It's a relief to be educating children in Scotland and not grappling with the system in England.

Some genuine questions:

I realise that the first one may cause offence but I would really like an answer.

Are those that are Scottish and live in England going to go back to Scotland if they vote yes for independence?

Should a Scottish person (if Scotland gains independence) stay as a member of the English/Welsh parliment?

Finally

Who decides who is eligable to vote in the referendum? (I ask because I know several people whose parents where born in Scotland yet they where birn in England)

I am really enjoying this debate but still flummoxed at devo max.

As a Highlander, we were brought up to believe that the description 'Weegie' instead of Glaswegian, was rude. Ditto 'teuchters'.