To loathe the gradual creep of "gotten " as accepted English

[BonnyDay]

In this country ?

LRD I'd probably say "I've just bought a new coat."

I trained myself out of writing formally using it, and seem to have dropped it completely!

In fact ... geekery central here, but look at these different versions of a well-known Bible verse I've just found:

· 1st Ed. King James (1611): "For God so loued the world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life."
· Rheims (1582): "For so God loued the vvorld, that he gaue his only-begotten sonne: that euery one that beleeueth in him, perish not, but may haue life euerlasting"
· Geneva (1557): "For God so loueth the world, that he hath geuen his only begotten Sonne: that none that beleue in him, should peryshe, but haue euerlasting lyfe."
· Great Bible (1539): "For God so loued the worlde, that he gaue his only begotten sonne, that whosoeuer beleueth in him, shulde not perisshe, but haue euerlasting lyfe."
· Tyndale (1534): "For God so loveth the worlde, that he hath geven his only sonne, that none that beleve in him, shuld perisshe: but shuld have everlastinge lyfe."
· Wycliff (1380): "for god loued so the world; that he gaf his oon bigetun sone, that eche man that bileueth in him perisch not: but haue euerlastynge liif,"

Anglo-Saxon (proper 'Old English'! around 995AD): "God lufode middan-eard swa, dat he seade his an-cennedan sunu, dat nan ne forweorde de on hine gely ac habbe dat ece lif."

Queen I'd say "...since I've had a new coat".

This is all just me though, no technical basis to it!

scatter - I would probably say that too. I am slipping into the habit of using 'gotten' as I have a lot of American friends, though.

I wonder if was in use as a plural lrd? As I suggested above. Interesting that in a post above, its also said that the American useage of gotten is to enhance the uses of got, whereas in English, my guess is that its used to give an enhanced sense of posession.

Not surprising at all that geordies have a lot of danish DNA, considering newcastles position on the coast and its neing under the danelaw. The UK is heavily Anglo saxon/danish after all. The danish and German area of angeln gives us many of our place names ending in 'by'.

I don't know gee ... I should know and I'm sure tomorrow I will wake up and think of examples.

But yes, about the Danelaw. I find it so fascinating that it has continued on so long.

Perhaps gotten fell out of common usage and got was considered incorrect because after they lost their suffixes, they couldn't be used in the correct tense? Just a thought!

Yes, I think so.

I live in Scotland (central belt) and I've never heard "gotten" used here. Well, certainly not by a native Scot - perhaps by an American though!

What surprises me is the amount of people who write sentences beginning with "and" or "but". It was drilled into us at school that you never do this, and yet I see it every day now.

Oh and I also hate to see "sat" instead of sitting!

I never understood the logic behind 'and' and 'but' being banned, but 'moreover' and 'however' being fine (I think?). Can anyone explain?

Those Americanisms are certainly creeping in. I've even caught myself saying 'I'm done' at least twice in the last week. Help!

LRD you are best off googling it, if I try to explain here I will be shouted down by a horde of mumsnetters who will know better. Suffice it to say, there is no ban on starting a sentence with and or but.
take a look at this one for example
blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2012/01/can-i-start-a-sentence-with-a-conjunction/

Oh, yes, I know it's something a lot of people do and is accepted; I see it quite often in academic books so I assume it's 'gotten to be' personal taste. I just wondered what the original reasoning was and still don't quite follow it.

(Sorry: thank you, I meant to say!)

I do alot of proofreading and editing of essays, and there are sentences that start with 'but' that I allow and other that I do not. Generally they would have to have two clauses.
Moreover, I hate moreover and however.

a lot, before some rabid pedant jumps on me.

LRDTheFeministDragon There's no logic behind lots of grammar rules - it's generally just a stylistic choice of someone influential in the 18th or 19th centuries which people decided to call a rule later. It's bonkers.

I don't like 'moreover' either.

nelly has my dream job

absolutely Fred - earlier today I was adding to my CV and the split infinitive would have been perfect, but I just couldn't put it in there in case somebody read it who was convinced it was a crime against grammar.

nelly - I don't like 'moreover' but I do like 'however'. I correct essays with 'and' or 'but' when I think the student is unaware of the existence of the rule saying it's bad grammar, but not when someone is evidently aware of the rule but choosing to disregard it.

fred - thanks! Bonkers, is that the technical term?

I don't care for split infinitives but I ought also to also wince at any separations of two words that'd be once in Latin: 'having often been annoyed' should be just as bad, surely?

the thing is these prescriptive grammar rules were invented by a load of ....grammarians...who had been educated in Latin, who seemed to disregard the fact that English is not Latin. In Latin for example, you don't split an infinitive because you simply cannot. In English they are made for splitting.
Who was it who said...
'when I split an infinitive, goddammit I split it so it stays split'?

Oh, I love that!

I think they didn't so much disregard the fact English is not Latin, as they believed that by making English Latinate, they could dignify it and make it more precise and meaningful. It's a debate that has roots in really important theological arguments that do go to the nature of 'the Word'. So I suppose you could argue if you're an atheist/non Christian, all of this is much less significant anyway.

The 'goddamit I split it so it stays split' is definitely on the atheist side of things!

ooh interesting stuff, LRD...

I am writing on the Wycliffite Bible (or rather the people who disliked it and thought it was shocking to translate the Bible into English). That's why I was thinking about 'gotten' appearing in the Bible as 'begotten'.

ha I was just googling John Wycliff......