to think that there is NEVER an acceptable reason to call a 32 year old woman a "young girl?"

[Hullygully]

No I'm not.

I couldn't care less what emotive flannel is flung about.

IT. IS.NOT.ACCEPTABLE.

The end.

TheBossOfMe you've summed the whole issue up beautifully.

Hully YABU and the use of the words "emotional flannel" illustrates beautifully why so many people shy away from feminism. We are all being told how we should think, that we are idiots, hysterical, etc etc. because we are too stupid to understand the implications of a phrase. That we should be ashamed because people died for the female cause and we are letting the side down.
Well I'd say that's a whole load of emotional flannel being thrown in our
direction. You can't have it both ways.

I'm 32 and I got called a young girl this week though I was at a WI meeting and was a good 15-20 years younger than everyone else. I quite liked it! Though if anyone called me a girl at work, I'd think about slapping them. Due to the nature of my work, I'm often referred to as Miss Traz, as opposed to the correct Mrs Toes

Why is this thread still here? It's so obviously a thread about a thread, started right after the last one filled up, and obviously started to goad those of us who think its crass in the extreme, not to mention full of insults and disablist language and thinly veiled mental health insults.

The two threads on this are the worst I've ever read on mn and do not show the site in a positive light at all.

I don't think you can bring out the 'thread about a thread' argument if the original thread is full.

'tis perhaps a bit crass to start a second thread about said topic when so many people said they found the first thread offensive, though, isn't it,sue?

Bold fail.

1. Those of you who think it's terrible and awful to discuss phrasing because two police officers (female) were murdered:

You are missing the point. Spectacularly.

1. Those of you who say parents and friends would call someone "their young girl."

Yes indeed, as said many times. But not a PROFESSIONAL SUPERIOR.

1. Yes, I know Olivia, I wasn't excusing the "personal attack," simply explaining the word used.

No Boss, some people found it offensive.

Their problem.

They can always not read.

There are some of us who want to discuss words used about professional women, and we shall do so if we choose.

But you're not looking a discussion - you feel you are right, it is unacceptable, the end. So I'm not really sure what your point was in starting the thread.

Hully I think its you who is spectacularly missing the point. The officer who used the words is there to represent the families. Not the force. That's his role as the families liaison officer. Not to talk in the role of a superior officer.

I don't think it's crass at all - but then I never did. The discussion was/is ongoing, despite the rather childish attempts to fill the other thread.

I'm still on the fence, as it happens, but all this bile directed at people who want to rationally discuss a current issue, on a talk forum, is baffling.

Good point!

Steaming outrage probably.

mine was to wiggles

And I agree that you don't seem to be looking for a discussion - your very words in your OP are the ones that seem to be doing the silencing Hully, not mine.

The boss,

you are insisting on bringing it back to the particular again, I don't understand why you are so keen to make it all right.

I don't care what the circs. A woman of 32 is NOT a YOUNG GIRL.

X post

Look, I'm outraged at the words men use to demean women. I'm outraged at the actions men take to demean women. I'm generally outraged, if I'm honest. I find it hard not to be outraged most of the time. I'm sure you get the picture!

But not about this.

But it's part of it.

it is an example of the wider culture. You must see that.

It does not in any way detract from the terribleness of what happened to those police officers (if we must do the particular!)

All the "small" thiongs matter because it is they that make upo the whole.

YANBU, I always correct my DP when he uses 'girl' to describe a woman. Its belittling, IMO.

what sue said, also the attempts to up the "emotive flannel" ante to make Hully feel guilty are not on really

YANBU

In your opinion, Hully, only in your opinion.

I'm 40 and I still think of myself as young. I sometimes still kid myself that I'm a girl. My dad calls me his young girl, at the same time as regularly asking for me to help him with complex legal and business matters. So does my mum.

I've never served a day in uniform (unless you count CCF) but I have family that do, including a member in the Met and one in Afghanistan. They all talk of their relationships with their senior officers as being paternal, maternal, in loco parentis, and vice versa. Its not so hard to understand, under the circumstances, why they might use language that would normally be used by a parent or older family member, is it?

It is possible to call a woman of 32 a young girl if you are her mother or elderly or if some aspect of your personal relationship makes that usage whimsical or affectionate.

It is not appropriate to call a woman a young girl in a professional context or if you don't know her.

Ironically everyone is fighting about respect.
Some think that the only issue is respecting the family and how they refer to their loved one.
Some think that women who are professional and past 18 and who are doing a job they value should be afforded the respect of being referred to in those terms and not in terms more appropriate to a 16 year old who stumbled into an accident. Their loss should be respected. The courage they chose to exhibit everyday - the life choice they made to stand between the public and those who would wish them harm - is diminished by the implication that they were just young chatterboxes who should have been having a gossip and out of harms way.

Both views are probably right IMHO.

The problem arose when their senior officer had to voice the emotions of the family. So those two different views were set at odd.

We all view these women as brave, professional women who chose a job many of us would not . We all know their families loved them dearly.

Saying 'shut the fuck up, the conversation is disrespectful' ignore the fact that everyone wants the full weight of this tragedy appreciated. If these women were 'innocents' who stumbled into this scene I was be sad. The fact that they got up everyday choosing to place themselves in that situation is the part that makes their loss also heroic. I want them to be seen as the brave women they were. Not hapless girlies.

I wish people would step away from the 'heartless, insensitive' comments. It's baffling me a bit.

If you were a 32 year old accountant in an important meeting with major clients, would it be acceptable for your boss to say " and can I ask the young girl from accounts to present last year's sales figures?"

Well said, Pagwatch. And the "slaughter of the innocents" remark wasn't made in the first 4 hours after the tragedy.

fanjo - I'm not doing anything at all to make Hully feel guilty. I'm merely stating my POV whilst respecting the fact that she has a different one. The subject matter is very very emotional, its inconceivable that it would be anything but.