To not understand why any woman would not want to be a feminist?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Seriously why would you want to be treated worse than men?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

I think if someone is unhappy with their life then changes do need to be made.

I agree a woman can be happy to have a cleaning job. I had a job cleaning a families house for a while and was more than happy to do it for a bit of extra money. But we are not living in a society free from sexism when it is women mainly doing these kind of jobs.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

nailak - no need to apologise.

[squeakytoy]

A woman is the person who carries a baby, and whose body has to recover from giving birth to it. It is unfeasible in any society to expect the woman to stand up after giving birth and go back to work. Yes, she could hand it over to the father and pick up her briefcase to go back to the office, but no matter how "equal" that may be, it is not practical for the vast majority of women.

No amount of medical progression will change that.

And therefore society will always be dominated by males rather than females. If men could carry a baby and give birth, I suspect it would be very different.

[Yourefired]

Nailak, unfortunately I do feel my new traditional role is less valued (albeit more valuable to my children and wider family). I do not have an income, even my CB has gone due to my DH's income, I do not have a pension scheme or private medical cover anymore, and I do not have a career structure and easy access to training and promotion opportunities. Yep, think my role is easily less valuable in economic terms. The only rights I have is that afforded to me my marriage or the welfare state. You are absolutely right that women have a right to choose a traditional role and that it is valuable. But, the system is geared towards it working best within a traditional (male breadwinner winner) setup.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

You are right that biological differences mean that women and men are different. But society could be organised in such a way that mothers were supported rather than punished in the workplace for having children.

And lots of women are not mothers.

[squeakytoy]

Well I would say that women get a bloody good deal in the workplace, particularly in the UK, when it comes to maternity benefits. I do not see them being punished.

As for women who are not mothers (like myself - I am a stepmother), then I see no barriers.I have never found any restrictions on my career due to my gender. I progressed though levels, was on equal pay to my male colleagues, and even in a male dominated industry I was treated fairly and equally.

[Binfullofmaggotsonthe45]

I ditto everything that worra says.

Also it seems that the argument is always to want the same or better. Rather than just accepting differences between genders and just treating everyone with equal respect.

Some of the feminist posts on here really don't help me tbh. The route seems to be it's their way or the highway. And there seems to be a lot of thread hijacking where feminist posters just keep repeating the same posts over and over again until people just get exhausted or embarrassed by their one track opinions and give up on the thread.

[nailak]

yeah i would agree with what you are saying, that wider society needs to recognise and support these roles and it is geared towards having a breadwinner.

however why would we only consider value in terms of economics? of how much money we bring in? is capitalism our goal in life? does having more money make us more fulfilled and a better person? why do you care how much your role is valued by wider society at the detriment of how much it is valued by those close to you?

and if you look at the economics, how much would it cost to hire carer/nanny/cook/cleaner etc, you are actually providing these services and contributing to the household income as you dont have to buy these services from elsewhere.

If you want training etc, have you looked at the voluntary sector? I have dont know what areas you are talking about, but in the years since I have had kids I have managed a lot of training either online (open uni, learning languages via skype etc) and through voluntary organisations training.

[SarahStratton]

What about lesbians, EBL?

:)

[Yourefired]

Nailak, I agree, not just about income and out goings. And yes other things are more important, which is why I gave it all up. But here's my gripe. In all of the discussions, and sorting out stuff it was assumed that I (and SIL) would sort. There was no real understanding of what we were giving up. Just an expectation of that's how things are. Which leads me back to the original question. Off to bed now. Sleep well.

[SarahStratton]

I'm not trolling.

I just wondered what your stance was.

:)

[ElaineBenes]

I think the reason is a lack of understanding of feminism or deep-seated cultural beliefs which are too ingrained to shift or because equality works both ways and men also need to allowed to be carers just as much as women.

[ElaineBenes]

Squeakytoy

Your experience is a victory for feminism and the statistics support what you're saying - childless women have no penalty in the workplace compared with men.

The problem kicks in when women have children. For me, as a feminist, a) I'd like to see the caring for children shared equally between men and women and b) the workplace reshaped to allow both men and women flexibility to take part in family life. At the moment, although maternity benefits are fairly generous, the penalty kicks in in terms of career progression for women - probably because they're the ones taking time off ( either through extended maternity leave or p/t working or just working fewer hours) much more than dads.

I see a lot of value in having a stay at home parent - I just don't get why it has to be the mum. Ideally both parents would go part-time (according to family circumstances) and the work place would be flexible enough to permit it

[FairPhyllis]

IME if you prod most women about their thoughts on this they emerge as feminists in the sense that they expect legal/political equality - right to vote, drive, make medical decisions for themselves, be able to open a bank account by themselves, have equal pay, get access to education etc. They are also often concerned about violence against women and perhaps economic equality - they want maternity leave and not to be passed over for a job because they are of child-bearing age etc. So pretty much liberal feminism. But they are often reluctant to name their political views as feminism even though that's what they are.

My guess is that this is either because some women genuinely do think that feminists are "extreme" and that there's no kind of spectrum of views, or because identifying as a feminist still carries a penalty. People are often dismissive of you if you identify as a feminist - they may wrongly attribute certain views to you or be hostile or belittling - men in particular. I can think of some working environments in which it would probably be damaging to call yourself and be known as a feminist.

[cynner]

I am a feminist, if that means believing women have the right to decide what happens to their bodies. This to means everything from choosing to terminate an unwanted pregnancy to deciding whom I wish to invite into my bed. The feminism I see on the boards here is often strident. If you dare voice an opinion outside the accepted feminist ideology than you better be prepared to get battered. I will fight to the death for everyone woman's reproductive and lifestyle choices, and I will do so whilst,wearing heels, lacy bra, and lippy.

[honeytea]

I am not a feminist because I want people to be equal no matter what genitalia they have between their legs/what colour their skin is/How able/disabled they are.

I was brought up by a radical feminist single mother, I was taken to greenham common, I wasn't allowed barbies and I had 1 brown dress I could wear on very special occasions. I was taught from a young age how powerful I was as a woman and how much of an amazing thing having a womb and being able to grow and feed a baby is.

Now I am pregnant with a little boy and if I lived in the UK (which I don't) I would be much more worried about his future than if I was pregnant with a little girl. The way schools teach and the way toys are divided up is in my opinion very biased towards girls.

Me and my DP will share our parental leave equally, we can choose a school that we think fits our son's learning style (when the time comes) we have a selection of baby clothes waiting for him, some yellow some green some pink.

I just think the best thing you can do is live your life as equlaly as possible, the protests and anger and feelings that women are not equal to men is only detrimental in my opinion, just enjoy your life and enjoy your skills and the amazing oppertunities you have as a woman.

[pigletmania]

I agree with worra. Feminists can come across as very extreme, and quite negative towards men. I do not agree with all aspects of feminism, and sometimes like to adopt the more girls stance ie f a man opens a car door or ets me have his jacket because I am cold, I don't mind. I rather like equality for all.

[exoticfruits]

I agree with WorraLiberty at the start. I thought that I was a feminist until I started reading the views on MN and it is now quite clear to me that I am an equalist, if you can have such a thing. I do get so fed up with all the garbage I read about 'the patriarchy' as if all the lovely men I know e.g. DH, FIL, father, grandfathers, DSs are in some sort of conspiracy to keep women down. My grandmother was born at the end of the 19th century and she was a strong woman- she didn't put up with any of the rubbish that people think all women put up with at that time.
Of course I want equal rights, equal pay etc but I do so dislike being told what I must think and do. If I want to be called Mrs and change my surname I have every right to do so. If I think that looking after a pre school child is way more interesting than any paid work, I am perfectly entitled to my opinion. I hate the way that I am told that I must want money, power and status -they don't interest me. Quite frankly if I had to be head of an organisation like BP (apparently we have a duty to aim for top jobs) I would go into deep depression- it would take away all that I love in life.
I always wonder what happens to DCs like you, honeytea, and it doesn't surprise me at all that it was very hard as a DC not to have the freedom to be yourself.
I have a friend who will insist on calling me 'syster' and talking about 'wimmin' and I have to just let it flow over me.
As the mother of DSs I worry about them and the fact that as DCs many of their characteristics are frowned upon, thought to be social conditioning and some people will not accept that there is any difference. I have 3 very caring, thoughtful, peace loving DSs who see women as equal and can cook, do housework etc. However there are differences. It irritates me that people won't accept that , generally, 6 small boys in a house for a party will be more boisterous than 6 small girls- or that a Beaver meeting will be very different than a Rainbow meeting. I would just love to see some of these people manage 20 young boys so that they all have a great time and there is no chaos!
I seem to go around in circles on that one - if I say that people are ridiculous to want a certain gender because I am told they are the same, I am told not to be silly of course there are differences - but then I am not allowed to point them out the differences because they hate generalities!

[OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos]

Like I said on the other thread, I dont want to be a feminist because I don't want to be given a label or be put in a catergory that basically means I have common sense and non idiotic views on equality. Just because some other people think in the wrong way, doesn't not mean I should have to label myself with anything, especially with a word that has a connotation that I don't like.

[pigletmania]

I agree there seems to be an notion of telling women what they should do or think which I totally disagree with, and which puts me off tbh

[ecclesvet]

I wouldn't label myself a feminist because from my experiences with self-proclaimed feminists, they pay lip service to equality for all genders, but are really only concerned with the advancement of womens' rights. That might have been a good idea 100, 50, 25 years ago, but nowadays we need a more finely-tuned approach. So I guess I'm an equalist/egalitarian/anti-sexist, whatever.

[QuickLookBusy]

I want equality for my two dds, but I also want them to follow their own dreams and not to feel guilty or inadequate like I did when I chose not to work after dc.

I know I am a feminist in that I want equality and freedom but I'm quite hesitant about saying I am. In real life I always qualify "I'm a feminist" as unfortunately there are stereotypes associated with that word which i don't want to be associated with. This has been reinforced for me, by reading comments on MN which make me

I think it's a real shame, I think we need a new word to encapsulate what the majority of women want "feminism" to mean.

[Pumpster]

I'm anti sexism in the same way I'm anti racism anti disablism (sp?) and anti discrimination. I don't identify as a feminist however.

[flatpackhamster]

QuickLookBusy

I want equality for my two dds, but I also want them to follow their own dreams and not to feel guilty or inadequate like I did when I chose not to work after dc.

I know I am a feminist in that I want equality and freedom but I'm quite hesitant about saying I am. In real life I always qualify "I'm a feminist" as unfortunately there are stereotypes associated with that word which i don't want to be associated with. This has been reinforced for me, by reading comments on MN which make me shock

I think it's a real shame, I think we need a new word to encapsulate what the majority of women want "feminism" to mean.

I think you should look to reclaim the word 'feminism' from the female supremacists who've sullied it with their warped thinking.

It's interesting to me that both feminism and the Green movement have suffered over the last few decades and have been warped from their original purposes.