AIBU to ask if it's possible to discipline your child without crushing them?

[emeraldgirl1]

Briefly, my own mother was a total tyrant (didn't help she also has pretty obvious tho undiagnosed narcissistic/hysterical personality disorder) and me and my siblings grew up terrified of her rages/temper. She used physical discipline when we were v small (though may have been normal (?) for the 70s??) and just in general would never brook any disagreement about ANYTHING. Also wouldn't brook too many opinions about anything that didn't match her own either! :( However in her mind, the way she talks about it now, her children were just 'naturally' well-behaved and never willful or disobedient and she never had to tell us off for being naughty (er... we were never naughty it's true but only cos we were so scared of her!!)

Am newly pg with my first and am wondering how I am ever going to be able to instill discipline in my child without turning out like my mother :(

My DSis has children who (though wonderful) do run absolutely riot and are pretty out of control; my amateur psychologist opinion fwiw is that she has been so terrified of 'crushing' them and/or scaring them like our mother did that she has been totally unable ever to instil any boundaries or discipline; she doesn't say no to anything ever and her children do play her up in a really awful way, almost embarrassing at times what she lets them get away with. OTOH they are fundamentally nice and happy kids and I think she would rather them be absolute devils than have them go through what we did as kids.

I just don't know if I can face the thought of such total chaos myself, however, and am desperate to believe that I will be able to instil discipline of the most basic kind without having my child frightened of me. But honestly, even typing the word 'discipline' frightens me and makes me imagine I will suddenly become a frightening figure to my child, bullying him/her the way I remember all too well. But I really don't want to bring up a child, like my sister's, who has no boundaries, who won't ever do a single thing they are told etc. Nephews and niece have totally dominated my sister since the day they were born, every nappy change was a battle like I have never seen before, as toddlers they would sometimes hit her with no consequences, too many more stories of domestic chaos to write about!!

Are there any books I can read to help me with this? Is it even possible, I have to ask, to have children who will do what you tell them (within reason!!! I am not expecting little angels, honest!!!) but who are not scared of you?

Worried I am going to go either the way of my sister or the way of my mum and I want to believe I can achieve something different for my child :(

I should add that I am currently rubbish at saying 'no' myself to nephews/godchildren etc but have always assumed I'd get magically better at it when it comes to my own children... :)

There is a happy medium...

I don't often suggest this, but round here there are parent classes you can go to that you might find helpful. They suggest ways you can discipline without crushing.

The word "no" does not spoil a child's personality, it may save their life. If ds hadn't stopped when I shouted "no" at him on one occasion he would have stepped on some broken glass.

You can discuss things with your child. For example dd2 came and asked me if she could have something to eat not long before dinner. I said she only had half an hour before dinner, so I'd think it would be better not. She suggested that she could have a raw carrot now, rather than a cooked one with dinner, and I accepted that idea. If she'd suggested having a packet of crisps I'd have said no chance. Either way she would have accepted what I said even if she didn't like it.

If you're worrying about it then I'm sure you're going to be a great mum. Never be afraid to ask for advice. The Health Visitor should be able to point you in the right direction for help.

Emarald I can honestly say you're already at an advantage here by identifying the need for discipline and fairness. There's plenty who don't consider this at all!

If you want to read a good book, I can recommend Toddler Taming by Christopher Green. Many will have differing opinions but his approach is really great IMHO.

With my DS we find that a disapproving tone and face work well (for now!) as it is is stark contrast to the usual praise, loving tones and hair ruffling (but not smothering!)

I work with a lead Psychiatrist who is working on publishing his 'Honeycomb Effect' model of core life skills, and the Parenting Honeycomb consists of:

Involvement - without smothering
Acceptance - but not overindulging
Firmness - but not rigidity
Democracy - not simplistically
And Congruence - as much as possible!

Liek Isay though, I think the very fact you are mindful at this stage speaks volumes, many don't think about discipline until its too late!

DeWe... thank you. I genuinely believe there is a happy medium I just don't have a clue how anyone finds it. I see children who DON'T seem terrified of their parents but who actually seem to respect them and I just have no idea how people achieve that. You sound as though you've done a great job with yours.

Kato thank you and thx too for the recommendation; I will look into it.

I think 'how to raise happy children' or 'positive discipline 0-3' are good books to read, especially the former - by Jan Stimpson and Jan Parker.

Christopher green talks about 'discipline' as relating to the word 'disciple' ie you aren't trying to control or intimidate children but you are trying to teach them by example and kind instruction what is and isn't okay behaviour.

Does that help as a different perspective on the word?

Oooh thank you bearcrumble I like the sounds of those titles... will see if I can hold of them. Feel a bit mad to be thinking about this when I haven't even had a child yet but it really, really bothers me and gets to me. Every time I see someone else with their child I am analysing like mad to try to see if I can work out what they are doing right/wrong/whatever...

surrealsitrhino you know, that really does help ,actually. Better than assuming 'discipline' means an iron rod, screaming and yelling, never listening to worries/opinions, making it all about how YOU feel as a mother and never about what your child may feel... sorry to rant, but at times I do think I drew the short straw with my mother :)

there is a happy meduim IMO children thrive on boundries and discipline not the shouting screaming and smacking kind of punishment well we all shout sometimes
, but it is ok to say no sometimes and it is ok to let your children know you are angry sometimes, I did used to smack my children and it doesn't work IME and we stopped doing it years ago teaching children right from wrong is a good things and doesnt crush them , you are going to have to draw from your own expereince and do it the opposite of your mum, My own mum was fair but shouty and all she had to do was give me a look and i would know, my step dad was an awful angry man,

dh mum was similar to your shouting rages and hitting out dh could have gone that way too thankfully he didnt

There's a big difference between discipline and control through punishment. Discipline is about being in control, both you and your child. It gives children confidence. Being controlled and punished is completely different.

You don't need to worry about this until your child is at least a year old. So you have plenty of time to read up and talk about it.

IMO it is always best to pre-empt situations. If your kid gets moody when hungry and likely to misbehave, then have snacks and meals ready when needed, don't do just one more thing before lunch (looks at Dh) and expect them to wait patiently. That way they will end up in trouble and you have to deal with it. Fees them when is reasonable and you will have a happier child who will listen better.

That's just one example, but try to base your ideas on how to make things go right, with back up plans for when they go wrong. Don't start with worrying about punishments, think about ways to head off problems before you get that far.

And is can be harder to say no to someone else's children than your own, but you may well find it easy to do if their behaviour is disrupting your dc. Older cousins running riot while your baby tries to sleep will quickly have you ready to tell them to stop.

I'm a recent convert to this and get regular emails with little hints and bits to read.

I have done a lot of reading and try to stick to attachment parenting/unconditional parenting style but do slip into shouty/bossy/do as I say parenting a lot when I'm stressed/tired/run down. When I'm struggling I remind myself to be a good role model, set a good example and my kids will copy me. If I start shouting and not listening to them then they shout at each other and don't listen to me!

There are three main types of parenting authorian parenting, authorative parenting and permissive parenting. Authorian parenting is the victorian style of parenting where complete obidence is expected and often physical punishment is used with out explaination. Sometimes adults who have experienced physical child abuse go the other way and are too permissive. The children have no boundaries and when things have really gone too far the parents have no methods to rein their children in.

The ideal parent is authorative they give clear boundaries and explanations to their children so that they know what is expected. Boundaries are consistant and so are the consequences. When a child misbehaves it is made clear that the behaviour is unacceptable, rather than the child themselves.

I think that part of good parenting is modelling conflict resolution. Ie. crap parenting is smacking the child to get them to do what they want. This is another good book.

www.amazon.co.uk/Talk-Kids-Will-Listen-Child/dp/1853407054

In that case i would highly recommend Christopher Green. And his first point is 'small babies have no need for discipline' so you have plenty of time to think it all through!

Good luck :)

thank you for all replies!!
MrsJay I like you have an instinctive belief that children need boundaries. My nephews are not happy at all when they are acting out/getting everything they want; when they get into their out-of-control phases you can see that they don't actually like it that much!

I do think insecurity comes from lack of boundries it is ok for them to test the line but they need to know where it is, My dds are nearly 20 and 14 so it is trial and error this parenting lark you wil know you don't want to be like your mother,

Reallytired thank you so much, that helps!! My mother was an authoritarian parent par excellence!
What worries me, I think, is that I will somehow be managing to make my child scared of me purely by my desire to have them not act up and go wild. From the age of a little baby IYSWIM. I have this horrible fear that I will be dealing with a crying newborn and that I will inadvertently do 'something' that will lead them to think I am someone to be feared. I don't mean any kind of physical violence; I think I worry about being so concerned not to be a walkover that I will end up giving off some kind of 'aura' to my child that tells it that he/she shouldn't mess with me. I think this is because I have such a clear memory of just never feeling 'allowed' to be anything other than perfect and perfectly behaved with my own mother.
Reading this back, I sound a bit mental, don't I? :(

I think that the type of discipline is largely governed by the type of child you have.

DS1 loathes being told off and it would be very easy to crush him simply by slightly too loud a voice or a harsh tone.

DS2 however NEEDS to be squashed from time to time in order to remind him that the world does not in fact revolve around him!

Firm but fair and keep their individual personality in mind and you won't go far wrong IMO.

OP I think you're very sweet

You sound like a lovely person and once the baby is born, your instinct will kick in and guide you - you'll be a great mum.

I had a very authoritarian father and was scared to misbehave too, so I was always adamant I will never treat my child they way he treated me (although to be fair he was a loving dad, doesn's sound like he was as bad as your mum).

My son is now 4 and I do often sometimes wonder if I am too soft on him but on balance, we have a lovely relationship, and I think we'll be just fine.

I think all the books quoted here can act as guidance and will hopefully reassure you that it can be done

BrainSurgeon thank you. I like to think some instinct will kick in but I'm just scared that my instinct is going to be like my mother's!! I'm not like her at all but I am a control freak about many things in my life (mostly about my body, to be fair, which I think is also making pregnancy hard on me and making me overthink everything) and I worry that I'll want to control my child. OTOH then I worry that I'll overcompensate and never control them, and be that poor mother who sits in the playground sobbing while her children beat up the other kids and vandalise the swings :)

Emerald my mum was pretty strict and the word "no" was often used (as were other harsher forms of discipline incl yelling, sending to our bedroom and even smacking [shock horror] on occasion). We were not crushed at all, in fact we had a healthy independent streak and I am great friends with my mum now.

I think the big big difference from your mum is that we always knew she loved us to bits and would do anything for us. She cuddled us often, was lovely to us when we were unhappy, told us she loved us, told us we were great etc etc. So we knew when we were disciplined that it wasn't about us it was about what we'd just done iyswim.

The other difference is that she only disciplined when we had actually done something dangerous or wrong, not for every tiny annoying mannerism.

I am sorry to hear what you went through as a child, I think there is a world of difference between your mum's behaviour and a parent who loves their child dearly and sets sensible boundaries and backs them up when needed.

I worried when DD got out of the baby stage into the toddler stage that trying to discipline her would scare her. I found that she wasn't remotely bothered about me even when I shouted in fear of her touching something hot because we had always been loving and cuddly with her. She just didn't understand that I could be scary. She is 20 months now and understands that somethings are not for her, that some things are hot, that she mustn't hit. She still tests us all the time and you have to be really consistent.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing IMO and I am not an expert, is how you see your child's behaviour. When DD is whiny and hitting and tired and angry which they all are sometimes I still know that she is my gorgeous DD. I try to never see her behaviour as malicious or mean or deliberately annoying. I know that some people do and this is where the problems start. I discipline for her, not for me. I am not punishing her for hitting me, I am showing her that the world has consequences for hitting.

How funny, minipie. What an apt x-post!

minipie thanks for your post: yes, there is a difference between a strict mum but who makes it clear it's only ever to keep you safe etc and a mum who just shouts and blames... my mum was the kind (this is an actual incident from when I was 3ish) to pour juice over my head when I committed the sin of not being able to decide between different juices for the fifth day in a row... She was just as bad when I was a teenager, got furious with me every time I was in typical teenage mood (which, to be fair, I think I only did one time or two!!) and for example when I had problems with friends etc at school I could never tell her because SHE would get upset and likely then phone other parents and rant at them and make things worse... doing this when I was 12 resulted in my entire friendship group abandoning me after one of their parents got yelled at... the irony is that my mum honestly thinks she did a great job!!

I like this book "Saying No" by Asha Phillips. She's a psychotherapist

I also like Playful Parenting