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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask if it's possible to discipline your child without crushing them?

65 replies

emeraldgirl1 · 03/09/2012 15:10

Briefly, my own mother was a total tyrant (didn't help she also has pretty obvious tho undiagnosed narcissistic/hysterical personality disorder) and me and my siblings grew up terrified of her rages/temper. She used physical discipline when we were v small (though may have been normal (?) for the 70s??) and just in general would never brook any disagreement about ANYTHING. Also wouldn't brook too many opinions about anything that didn't match her own either! :( However in her mind, the way she talks about it now, her children were just 'naturally' well-behaved and never willful or disobedient and she never had to tell us off for being naughty (er... we were never naughty it's true but only cos we were so scared of her!!)

Am newly pg with my first and am wondering how I am ever going to be able to instill discipline in my child without turning out like my mother :(

My DSis has children who (though wonderful) do run absolutely riot and are pretty out of control; my amateur psychologist opinion fwiw is that she has been so terrified of 'crushing' them and/or scaring them like our mother did that she has been totally unable ever to instil any boundaries or discipline; she doesn't say no to anything ever and her children do play her up in a really awful way, almost embarrassing at times what she lets them get away with. OTOH they are fundamentally nice and happy kids and I think she would rather them be absolute devils than have them go through what we did as kids.

I just don't know if I can face the thought of such total chaos myself, however, and am desperate to believe that I will be able to instil discipline of the most basic kind without having my child frightened of me. But honestly, even typing the word 'discipline' frightens me and makes me imagine I will suddenly become a frightening figure to my child, bullying him/her the way I remember all too well. But I really don't want to bring up a child, like my sister's, who has no boundaries, who won't ever do a single thing they are told etc. Nephews and niece have totally dominated my sister since the day they were born, every nappy change was a battle like I have never seen before, as toddlers they would sometimes hit her with no consequences, too many more stories of domestic chaos to write about!!

Are there any books I can read to help me with this? Is it even possible, I have to ask, to have children who will do what you tell them (within reason!!! I am not expecting little angels, honest!!!) but who are not scared of you?

Worried I am going to go either the way of my sister or the way of my mum and I want to believe I can achieve something different for my child :(

OP posts:
JamieandOscarSittinginATree · 03/09/2012 16:17

Saying No

Playful Parenting

naturalbaby · 03/09/2012 16:23

Playful Parenting is great. It's made me re-think a lot about how I respond to my kids.
I try to pick my battles, and question why I am responding the way I am e.g does it really matter if the toys are all over the floor/he's not wearing a jumper (put a spare in the bag for when he gets cold and complains!)/if he doesn't eat his vegetables?

With a newborn I used to get very worked up about what my baby 'should' be doing, not helped by reading about routines (but they did really help with ds3). Eventually I relaxed and just focused on being baby led, and he relaxed too.

DoMeDon · 03/09/2012 16:27

As an aside (probably not my business so will butt out if told) -it may do some good to work on the unresolved issues around your mothers parenting too. Your DSis sounds to be overcompensating for emotionally unstable childhood by not setting many boundaries. Maybe by tackling the feelings of frustration/anger/resentment/sadness (or whatever they are) you would be able to approach your DC in an emotionally available way.

I feel that a good approach to discipline is only say NO if you are willing to see it through to the end. I stop, think, inform, listen and am consistent. Seems to work for us.

emeraldgirl1 · 03/09/2012 16:30

DoMeDon no, no, no need to butt out!!! I appreciate the time taken to post! Silly thing is that I have done quite a lot of work on my childhood, I had a total nervous b/d at about 23/24 and have battled eating disorder for many years so have been in (excellent) therapy and managed to come to terms a lot more with my unstable childhood. I think these things are coming up now cos of pregnancy and wondering if I am going to be able to cope. I suspect a lot of my mum's problems were caused by undiagnosed PND (amongst many other personality problems/ a crap and co-dependent husband in my father) and am scared I will go the same way.

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Bartusmaeus · 03/09/2012 16:34

As a PP says, it also depends on your child but it's a very interesting subject.

I hated being told off because I hated being in the wrong. I just did and always have done.

DH also hated being told off.

Unfortunately so far DS (11 months) doesn't seem to mind! He's a little firecracker (already walking and climbing and getting into everything) so I reckon we're going to have to be stricter with him than our parents were with us, just because we weren't always testing boundaries.

So far, we're concentrating on reducing how much we say "no" so it doesn't become too diluted (e.g. making the home as safe as possible so we're not saying "no" every 30 seconds as he tries to touch something dangerous) but also by substituting "no" with other words (e.g. "yuk, dirty, don't touch" when he tries to touch the bin) so he learns why we're saying no, rather than just being forbidden to do something.

Will look at those recommended books too.

spiderlight · 03/09/2012 16:35

Playful Parenting is fab!

DoMeDon · 03/09/2012 16:41

I think the 'she thinks she did a great job' comment struck a chord with me - we will all think that and all our DC will think we could have done something better. Accepting she did her best with the skill set she had is a good place to start. I was ill prepared for the journey birth and motherhood would take me on and coming to terms with my own childhood would've been the place to start. Probably just applying my experience to your situation, which may be totally wrong of me.

NiceCupOfTeaAndASitDown · 03/09/2012 16:46

There's some really good advice and recommendations here (that I will look to follow myself) - as the mum of a 19 month old and having had a similar upbringing to what you've described I would like to offer some advice from the angle of someone who is still trying to find the right balance.

Firstly the others are right, you won't have to put any 'discipline' into place for around a year, I would recommend you spend that time reading books on handling behaviour and watching/asking how others handle it for pointers.

I think it's important for you to be aware of the following that I have come to realise since DS was born

  1. you may start to identify with some of your mother's behaviour if/when your child 'acts up' and that's OK. I don't mean you'll act in the way she did but here's an example - my mother was first violent towards me at a very young age, when my best friend had a baby and he hit this age I felt disgusted at her behaviour and thought I'd never understand it. When DS hit that age I felt that she must have been feeling very low and vulnerable and desperate to do what she did (she most likely had ppd) and I felt sorry for her. As DS has got older there have been times when he's been crying for hours and I've literally tried everything to settle him and nothing works.. On occasion I have been able to say "yes this is how she felt", frustration, anger, desperation, failure - I'm not saying I would react in the way she did but I can see what drove her to it if that makes sense. I don't forgive the behaviour but I don't feel the negative feelings I felt about it before - listening to a child cry or whinge for an extreme length of time is very stressful and can bring all sorts of feelings to the surface. For me I try not to see it as a negative, I just make sure I take a break and go back feeling calm and in control before I act

  2. your child won't magically know you mean business with a look! Trust me, I've tried it.. He just laughs at me! It takes a really bloody long time for children to understand that no means no and the reasons for it and to stop touching the oven/plug sockets/whatever repeatedly - I'm still not there - the books help you understand that toddlers live in the here and now, they might understand the answer is no right now but they'll either forget in 2 minutes, not realise its always no or be interested to see if your reaction changes. Patience and understanding is vital to remain firm, and firm doesn't have to mean frightening!

  3. you will probably lose it at least once, toddlers 'know' how to push buttons (and don't forget they're related to you so probably share some traits you don't like about yourself or your OH) - you're not the world's worst mum if you shout (or whatever) every now and then. You'll feel like it (if you're anything like me) but guilt gets you nowhere. Apologise, forgive yourself and move on making the effort to handle things differently next time

  4. Think carefully about who you trust with your child and don't be forced into leaving him/her with someone for their benefit if you're not comfortable with it. Neither of my parents have ever been with DS on his own, part of the reason for this is I don't like the way they brought me up, they both very much think children should obey adults and think nothing if being rough or violent with them to make them comply. I don't want that for my children so if needed I will look for childcare elsewhere. I don't trust them and I make no excuses for that. It's my right and responsibility as a parent to make sure my child is safe.

The most important thing to remember is you're not your mum! (or your sister) - you probably will have moments where you feel like her after something you've said or done. The important thing is to learn from your (and her) mistakes and not let it ruin your enjoyment of being a mum. And if she wants to be involved in your child's life, give her a chance. My mum isn't the perfect grandmother (she often says she forgets I have a child sometimes - nice!) but she does try and DS loves spending time with her, I just make sure I'm always around!

Best of luck and try not to worry too much, some things will come naturally and some are trial and error but there's lots of places you can turn to for help, especially these boards!

emeraldgirl1 · 03/09/2012 16:56

NiceCupOfTea thank you so much for such a great post!

Interesting that you say that having your own DC made you understand the emotion your mum felt although of course you were self aware enough not to act the same way she did... I can see that this might well be the case. I do think that being aware of the feelings is the first step; people like my mum are just never aware that any feeling they have could possibly be something they need to deal with!! As a result I have a very hard time dealing with negative feelings of my own (anger, frustration etc)

Trial and error sounds the right way, really, I wish I could trust myself a bit more but hopefully that will come. I have a great DH so that should help

OP posts:
IWishIWasSheRa · 03/09/2012 17:15

Great post- I've just ordered the recommended how to talk so children will listen book! The comment about getting worked up about annoying tiny mannerisms struck a chord with me and Im looking forward to reading it. Thank you

NiceCupOfTeaAndASitDown · 03/09/2012 17:20

I'm seeing some spooky similarities with you OP! (also had breakdown at 24, eating disorders, trouble dealing with negative emotions) and our mums (most probably undiagnosed ppd, mental health issue only identified a few years ago which probably explains a lot)

Something else I feel might be of importance to you.. Many people will tell you to leave your baby to cry to help them learn to self settle etc. I am convinced that a lot of the reason I have trouble dealing with difficult situations and emotions is because I wasn't taught how, I was simply left to self settle and ironically I believe this leads to adults having little or no self soothing skills... Just a theory but with regards to behaviour I found this article struck a chord with me

emeraldgirl1 · 03/09/2012 17:25

NiceCupOfTea - oh, dear, yes, we seem to have lived parallel lives... sorry to hear that in many ways as I know how tough it's been... Will have a look at the article you link to, thanks so much x

OP posts:
DoMeDon · 03/09/2012 17:25

yy to nice's link - excellent blog all round

emeraldgirl1 · 03/09/2012 17:30

Have just had a quick read and it almost made me cry Blush
I love the idea of telling a child it's OK to feel sad/angry etc. I was never even allowed to feel sad or angry so the idea that you can tell a child this is OK is very new to me!

OP posts:
DoMeDon · 03/09/2012 17:34

Hear that emerald - DD has just sat telling me her friend hurt her today and it's not ok and it made her upset. She's 2! I wouldn't have been given the time to say that at 2, 12, 20, let alone be made to feel ok about it.

emeraldgirl1 · 03/09/2012 17:36

Wow DoMeDon - you have clearly done something very right!! I would be ecstatic if one day my child-to-be would talk to be that way!!!

OP posts:
babybythesea · 03/09/2012 17:54

I think you may find it comes as the child grows up.

It;s hard to imagine parenting a child now because the child isn't here - which means you don't know what you are going to get!

My dd is 3. She is strong-willed, independent and stubborn to the point of insanity. Things I've done with other people's kids for ages don't work so well with her. The worst so far is the refusal to come with me when we're out. You know that old "Goodbye then, if you don't want to come, I'm going" coupled with pretending to walk off? Fails miserably - she just says, very cheerily, "Ok Mummy, see you soon". I've even hidden, for twenty minutes, waiting for her to be upset and spooked into coming after me. She wasn't.
I didn't know this until she got to this stage so I'm thinking on my feet, as it were!

Our general principles are:
Not too many rules. So we think hard before we say no to something. Is it something we are prepared to dig in and fight over? If no, don't say no in the first place. That way, we don't spend all our time at home saying no.

She gets reasons for things, most of the time. Not long, drawn out reasons, and not ones she can argue with, but so she knows why. "Can I have some chocolate?" "No, because we are going to eat dinner soon." "I don't want dinner." "That's fine. But you're not having any chocolate either."

If she gets irrationally upset at something, even if it's something we said no to, I will sit on the floor and ask her why she's so upset. It does not mean I back down and give it to her, but I like her to try and explain to me - my thinking is it gives her the chance to think about and explain her feelings. It doesn't change the fact that I am in charge of the situation, but it does give her a chance to be heard.

There are lots of things we don't punish for that would be classed as bad behaviour - we just deal with them differently. She's not allowed to get down from the table until we have all finished eating (or we say she can). If she does, she's not allowed to come back for pudding. She knows that now (and yes, we have sat in front of her eating pudding with her watching every mouthful with her saying "but I am sitting down now"). Mostly, she doesn't get down without asking! If she's asked and we've said yes, then she can come back when we're ready for pudding - we don't make her sit there for hours if we are faffing!

We make it up a bit! We had major issues recently with her running off in public places, so we bought reins. We told her we'd put them on her every time she ran off. We had to do it twice. I still carry them with me, and all I have to do I show her and say "Do you want these on?" and she stops.

We do our own version of time out - we call it sitting by yourself. She dislikes it, so it works. She gets a warning "If you do that again, you'll be sitting all by yourself" so she knows full well what to expect if she carries on. I do it anywhere - on a beach, in a shop - and once I've threatened it, it's always carried out if she continues what she's doing. She hates being away from the action, which is why it works for us. Deliberately hitting/kicking with intention to hurt get no warning - do that once, and you're out.

Interestingly, even at 3, she's got a strong sense of fairness. If I sit her on her own and she knows she's been naughty, she will be very contrite and apologise and very rarely return to the naughty behaviour. If she thinks I've been unfair, she sobs and shouts at me.

We found consistency to be by far the best thing.
Same rules wherever you are so they know what is expected.
Always follow through - when you say you will do something, whether good or bad, do it.
And avert where possible - if you're going out for a coffee or for lunch, take stuff with you (colouring etc) so they have stuff to do. Don't go out ten minutes before lunch time, or when they are due a nap. If you must, pack up a picnic or have somewhere they can sleep. Don't leave a bottle of sunblock on a coffee table unless you want your coffee table 'polished' in sun cream!

They will always do things that take you by surprise so don't think you can plan ahead for every situation, but you'll be surprised by how much just seems to fall into place as your child grows.

ZonkedOut · 03/09/2012 18:23

Some great posts, I've learnt things reading this thread.

My own advice would be, talk to your kids. Even when they're very young babies. Tell them what you're doing, explain things to them. Similarly, say no, and explain why, even when they're too young to understand. It will get you into the habit of it (and is also good for their language development).

Establish clear boundaries. Determine with your DP what are definite not acceptable behaviours (e.g. hitting) and enforce that.

Generally, consistency is good, but allow yourself some flexibility, as long as you can explain your reasons to your DC. Hopefully they'll grow up knowing that you'll be approachable, especially when they have a good reason. E.g. "My friend is coming over, can I go to bed a little later tonight please?"

I think you won't end up like you mother or sister, you are very much aware of the pitfalls! And your DH will help too, I'm sure!

Other than that, realise you will make mistakes. When you make a mistake, don't beat yourself up about it, learn from it and move on.

Also, your kids will end up blaming you for something, however good a job you do. One of my sister's biggest gripes about her childhood is that my Mum never let her have an etch-a-sketch. I think that's a sign that our Mum didn't do too bad a job!

bobbledunk · 03/09/2012 18:55

There are two ways to instill fear in children; first is to be a tyrant who terrorises them under control, second is to pass it on by being fearful of everything yourself and reacting to every situation with fear. So long as you neither bully them or teach them to be fearful by expressing fear in front of them, they'll be fine.

Let them do whatever they're interested in (within reason of course), read to them, talk to them, encourage them, socialise them early, build their confidence by telling them they're great at whatever they're good at, teach them right from wrong and have only a few rules that are there for a reason (tidying their bedroom, being kind etc...), don't tolerate any behaviour that involves being horrible or disrespectful to others or destructive of other peoples property.

A confident child with healthy self esteem won't emotionally collapse from having boundaries enforced or a stern giving out to.

emeraldgirl1 · 03/09/2012 19:03

Thank you bobbledunk and zonkedout and babybythesea
Reading your fantastic posts it sounds very simple, even if not actually easy IYSWIM.
I wish I had been lucky enough to have one of you as a mum!!!

OP posts:
leelteloo · 03/09/2012 19:12

An excellent book is The Magic Years. It is a manual that accompanies a really good parent craft course but the book can be read as stand alone.
The is no reason to be a tyrant parent when other strategies work so much better. But you must learn to say no and that you need to be in charge in order for your children to feel safe and secure. Good luck Grin

Ladylazarus2 · 03/09/2012 19:16

I think you will be just fine.

I do dream of being able to repress my children. In reality, and like most other parents of our generation, the risk you are going to run is of your children repressing you.

bobbledunk · 03/09/2012 19:22

You're going to be a brilliant mother emeraldgirl1, your child will be very lucky to have you as their mum.

emeraldgirl1 · 03/09/2012 19:23

This has been such a great response to my bonkers OP, thanks v much everyone and it is genuinely such a pleasure to read your posts with advice etc xx

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emeraldgirl1 · 03/09/2012 19:25

That's really nice of you bobbledunk - I can only hope so!! All I have ever wanted for my future child is to let them grow up happy and able to talk to me no matter what. If I can achieve just that I will be so, so happy! I hope the huge majority of decent mothers out there are able to give themselves praise if they have managed to do that!! The alternative is so miserable.

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