To think we are ALL assisted by the tax payer in some way

[CordeliaStarling]

Im fed up of hearing people moaning about families who they perceive to get too much aid from 'the taxpayer'

I can't believe there is a single person in the UK who doesn't receive any kind of help or use a service that is funded by the tax payer.

emphatic what sort of reply is that?

I have already made it very clear that I get very fucked off by people insisting that not only should I pay more tax, I should jolly well be glad about it.

And it's interesting that the poeple who say those things always want it to be someone else paying more. They never want to do it themselves.

If you are in the 45% bracket you already have plenty of disposable income. You are already far luckier than people on MW. You don't actually need that money. So why don't you pay more tax.

If you won't respond to me, then at least be honest with yourself and ask yourself why you don't pay more.

I am nothing like on top rate.
If the lying cheating scabby governments of both stripes had indexed allowances, I would still be on lower rate tax.

I think it is iniquitous to pay more than 50% on top rate tax.

I think it's far worse that companies (Voda/ etc.) dodge billions.
I think pension funds and unit trust are stupid not to vote down some bankers and ftse 100 pay deals.

So, by all means drop the top rate down to 40% and toughen up the loopholes.

CakeMeIAmYours Thu 30-Aug-12 14:42:22
"Close the loopholes. Instantly the tax bill of the top 1% will quadruple

No it won't. The geographical mobility of the top 1% is very very high. Closing 'loopholes' just means that they will leave the country."

Incorrect. Do you think Ken Livingston or Jimmy Carr would set up home in Switzerland just to get their tax rate down? No. But a cheeky suggestion from their ccountant - it's difficult to say no to.

You're talking about the top 0.01% - people like Lewis Hamilton and Philip Green - they've 'left' the country already. FWIW I'd close that loophole too. Make 'em pay 45% on all income earned here, or arrest them at Heathrow.

I'm not an income tax payer as I earn too little, dh is in the 40% band. We would both happily pay more tax if we trusted the government to make life better for all in the UK but they don't so we give money (and time) to charities doing the things we feel the government should be doing.

I am sure we are not alone in this, the picture is a very complicated one.

My point is that even if someone is 'begrudgingly' paying a high rate of tax it can never compare to those struggling to pay food bills/rents/utilities etc having seen this in childhood as I'm sure many people have or are experiencing it now.

We are on one income for six people and we have just recently moved into the 45% tax bracket and can understand the need for higher taxes of the better off particularly at this difficult economic time. Do we love paying high taxes - no but I can't bring myself to complain about it when I see family members and friends struggling. That is my point.

wordfactory - its not luck thats put us on more than MW, its been a long hard slog. It wasn't luck that put my BIL on MW, it was lack of ambition/work.

who are you to say what money i do or don't need? Why should i go without things that i have worked hard for so i can give even more money away. sometimes i feel like my MIL is a big cuckoo who always has its mouth open demanding more benefits. She never seems to consider the money actually comes from people - its always the government.

Emaphatic what you're essentially saying is that you don't want to pay more tax. Because alhtough you are well off in comparison to many others you don't think it's fair that you should pay more.

This is not a critisism by the way.

I think you are right.

I think the 45% bracket is about at the edge of fairness. And I have always paid my taxes at that rate with good grace.

Actually, I'm talking about people like me. We're by no means the wealthiest people in the country, but have agreed that if our tax bill rises above a certain level (which is is perilously close to at the moment) then we will leave.

To be honest, it is more out of principle than anything else; paying more than half our income to the government for them to piss it up the wall is just too soul destroying to contemplate.

dreaming I think you've missed my point.

I was saying that I did not want to pay over 50% in tax on any money I earn and that those saying I should ought to ask themselves why they don't pay more tax.

Can anyone seriously say there is no luck/good fortune at all involved in their level of earning? I can think of so many things outside of my control that have changed my future both positive and negative.

My DH has a theory that wages usually adjust to reflect changed in the tax system so e.g. if a new higher tax band is brought in, people in that band push for higher salary rises, etc until things are almost back to square one.

I wonder, if that theory works, are employers getting away with paying lower wages because of tax credits? If some of these vanished or were reduced, would employers suddenly begin paying a living wage?

cake watching the news headlines last night (Nick Clegg's suggestion), I heard my DH musing for the first time that he simply will not pay more.

He has never done anyhting proactive before, paid his taxes without any silly schemes (though they are offfered each year). But he seems unable to consider a further hike.

He can't be alone, I'm sure.

Whilst I get your point queenofdiamonds I don't think we should compare ourselves to third world countries. Just because we're considerably better off doesn't mean we can't be unhappy with what is going on here.The unfairness and the inequality.

Complaining about inequality is reasonable. Nothing wrong with wanting a fairer system. BUT that is not what a lot of people do - A lot of people want to see people left to starve. Well, that is what happens when you have a system like that, and the people that want that should go and sample it and realise just how much they themselves are benefitting from other people getting state support.

What I'm saying Wordfactory is that we are at a time in our lives where we have more money than we have had before, after years of hard work and struggle, (but still a fair share of privilege and good luck) and yes there is a part of me that would like to hold onto as much of that wealth as we can, but having lived with much less for years the higher rate of tax does not stop us living a good life, therefore how can I possibly begrudge the tax when so many people can't sleep at night for fear of losing their homes?

My sense of entitlement doesn't compare with other people's realities.

I don't think anyone is begrudging paying what they are paying now. I think people are concerned that there seems to be an expectation from some people that higher rate tax payers can be asked to contribute more and more without recognising that there is a point where it becomes a disincentive for people.

I would like to see the money that is already collected better spent. For example, how about allocating the £280m pa given to India (which has its own space programme) to supporting people with disabilities in the UK. Bear in mind that our steel industry in the UK is owned by an Indian company as is Tetley tea.

Lets not forget the failed and abandoned NHS computer system - what a good use of £11.4bn that was. The PFI hospitals that have ridiculous uncommercial terms and the MoD's woeful record on procurement costs.

Re: many saying it's not luck, it's hard work, blah. Look at this from my point of view: I did the slog, I had the luck, I made the money. Then I had bad luck and made wrong decisions. Now I'm poor and, frankly, stuck in an ever-deepening hole thanks to the various "me first" attitudes directing our lovely nation atm. Anyone who thinks people like me (and there are a lot of us) happily gave up a nice live to live on benefits must be even madder than me - and I'm diagnosed!

Re: some still saying lazy scroungers, blah. The latest Department for Work and Pensions estimates show that in 2011/12 just 0.7 per cent of benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud, including a 2.8 per cent fraud rate for jobseeker?s allowance and a mere 0.3 per cent for incapacity benefits. Even if we put together fraud with ?customer error? ? people who are not entitled to benefits but not deliberately defrauding the state ? the rate of false claims is 3.4 per cent for JSA and 1.2 per cent for incapacity benefit.

The claim that benefit fraud is increasing is similarly false. Combined fraud and ?customer error? for JSA and income supports declined from 9.4 per cent to 4.8 per cent of spending from 1997/98 to 2004/05, and has since stayed roughly flat.

www.redpepper.org.uk/mythbuster-welfare-reform/

Re: benefits pay plenty of money. You jest?! My rent is paid at the bottom 30% of the local market (ie, I live in a tumbledown house with draughts & damp), my council tax is paid and I get £90 a week for everything else. As I'm about to be reassessed, this will drop to £70 a week for 3 months while I appeal. Life of riley, yeah. (I did get DLA on top - £20 a week - but that's been stopped.)

I wonder, if that theory works, are employers getting away with paying lower wages because of tax credits? I broadly agree with your DH's theory, Viperidae, and suspect this part would also be true - if the govt weren't so dead set on sending the unemployed to work for benefits. That essentially means the state pays 100% of the labour cost. Which doesn't look too clever to me.

the top 0.01% - people like Lewis Hamilton and Philip Green - they've 'left' the country already. FWIW I'd close that loophole too. Make 'em pay 45% on all income earned here, or arrest them at Heathrow. - Could not agree with this more!

Those on benefits do pay vat... it could be worse that money could go missing from the pot permanently.

I've paid in before and hope to again. At the moment it's just VAT but it's either that or I hand back the benefits I'm given along with a nine grand a week care bill to the taxpayer.

I can assure you I don't 'cost' nine grand a week.

But I'm scum yeah, so I don't know what I'm talking about. Because my kids were born disabled. That gives me no right to comment?

In all fairness though it's not like we have a choice to pay VAT or not, if we want to buy stuff for ourselves than we have to pay VAT. Not really the same as working and paying tax.

Has anyone said you're scum? Because you're not. I think when people (myself included) go on about benefit scrounges we mean the ones who aren't in positions like yourself. The ones who are completely capable of work but chose not to. Not those who truly need help and aren't taking advantage.

Glitter

In my view you are one of the reasons I don't begrudge paying my taxes. There should be a proper support structure for people who can't work because of things like having caring responsibilities. I wouldn't want to live in a society where you weren't supported.

I don't think anyone on benefits is "scum" and I think it is vile that some people say that. However, I don't think it is good for society that there are some people who are capable of working but don't and don't contribute in other ways (yes I know this is a small proportion of claimants).