To think we are ALL assisted by the tax payer in some way

[CordeliaStarling]

Im fed up of hearing people moaning about families who they perceive to get too much aid from 'the taxpayer'

I can't believe there is a single person in the UK who doesn't receive any kind of help or use a service that is funded by the tax payer.

garlicnuts If they all left the sector to do other things, the supply of labour in that sector would fall relative to the demand and the going wage rate for a paramedic would rise accordingly. Which would attract more people to the sector and so on...

The market (generally) works very well when governments stop putting people pleasing spokes in the wheels - like 50% tax rates for example.

Close the loopholes. Instantly the tax bill of the top 1% will quadruple

No it won't. The geographical mobility of the top 1% is very very high. Closing 'loopholes' just means that they will leave the country.

Is it better to get a lower rate of tax from these individuals and corporations, say 40%, or to get nothing at all because they've upped sticks and left?

Cake - we all know how it works, but that doesn't really help much for the working people does it. We all know if we all walked out of our jobs wages would rise to get people back it. We all know about supply and demand. That doesn't help.

Mrsbethal - I get what you're saying but I'm not even going to pretend that I know enough to comment back properly :o

On another subject, what's annoyed me on the news today is the governments plan to cut pain killers and caesereans for women giving birth. That is a joke. It shows how completely out of touch they are. I would willing take a tax increase to ensure that these women were getting the care they need. But I shouldnt have to

Freddos by that argument no government employee is paying tax.

Nor any employee of a private company fulfilling a government contract.

The market (generally) works very well when governments stop putting people pleasing spokes in the wheels - like 50% tax rates for example.

I used to believe it, cake, but the nature of the markets has changed. There's too much money going out of the local economy and too much money in it that isn't really money - this happened because 'natural' checks & balances used to work, but there is now insufficient 'balance'. It is not a free-flowing economy any more and we need a massive restructure before the rich-poor divide really does approximate third world levels. I am a capitalist and can see that capital is now too heavily concentrated in too few hands. Everybody saw it coming; it's no surprise.

There shouldn't be resurgence of poverty-related diseases in the UK. But there is.

Lets see what happens when you introduce a new high rate tax

uk.reuters.com/article/2012/08/20/uk-france-tax-exodus-idUKBRE87J00420120820

www.cityam.com/latest-news/french-bankers-escape-hollande

after all wealth taxes work elsewhere don't they?
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/29/wealth-taxes-nick-clegg-bernard-jenkin?newsfeed=true

An employee earns their money though. So the money they spend on stuff that incurs VAT is theirs.

The money that someone who lives entirely on benefits is theirs too, but they haven't earned it, so they aren't really paying their own VAT.

An employee is giving something in exchange for their money. A benefit claimant is just taking it. IMO, that means that haven't really got a moral right to claim they pay tax.

I see no reason why people shouldn't pay towards maternity care and painkillers and elective c sections. These aren't illnesses, they are choices.

outraged I don't believe in elective c sections, but I certainly don't believe people should have to pay for maternity care and painkillers. There are many choices people make that lead them to the hospital doors. The age old smokers, drinkers and obese people argument. Among others.
Haven't people paid enough in tax and national insurance to cover their care in hospital? Or is that forgotten because they made a choice to have a child. Also the financial state of the couple shouldn't affect the unborns health.

And yet... I pay tax. I have a VAT receipt here in front of me.

And as it happens, I did earn my IB/ESA - by paying my National Insurance and by working in professions where pay is below social value, rather than the other way around. Had I become an accountant specialising in tax, I would have been better paid and also paid more income tax. But given less to the country overall.

It bugs the life out of me.
The benefits we have in this country benefit everyone.
I have a friend from south africa, and she was telling me what it was like growing up there.

If you don't have a job there, you starve in the street.
If you have a good job, and nice things, you are in danger of those who don't have it taking it from you - and not just taking it, you were pretty lucky if they just took it - They would kill you without a moments hesitation.
You pay for everything, every little thing and if you can't afford it, tough shit.
There were people there who were so uncivillised because of no education, no healthcare, no real rules, that when they moved to where my friend lived and started school, they would stand up in the middle of a class and take a shit, have sex with anything they wanted, child or not, take what they wanted.

It made me greatful for what we have in this country, and tbh, spouting off about what your taxes pays for makes you sound thick. If you don't like it, go to a country where they don't have what we do. Pretty sure you'd be back in a week begging to pay your taxes.

Cake - we all know how it works, but that doesn't really help much for the working people does it. We all know if we all walked out of our jobs wages would rise to get people back it. We all know about supply and demand. That doesn't help

Perhaps not in the here and now but we need to take a long term view of these things. I'm not suggesting that if people march out of their job tomorrow then the wage rate for that sector will rise overnight.

In the med-long term though, if take up rates for jobs in a given sector fall away over a number of years then the wage rate will rise over time.

I do believe that is is largely too late for those of us who have nailed our colours to the mast in terms of career/family choices. Future generations, however can look at the way things are at the moment, take a view as to how things are going to pan out and make better choices accordingly (this is what I meant earlier when I talked about having vision and working clever).

Whilst I get your point queenofdiamonds I don't think we should compare ourselves to third world countries. Just because we're considerably better off doesn't mean we can't be unhappy with what is going on here.The unfairness and the inequality.

cakeme - it's nothing about having vision and thinking clever. There you are tying to say you are and I'm not. What I am doing is thinking about what happens now. Like I have said some of us aren't in the posistion to think about what happens for future generations. We can't afford to.

And what choices can future generations make? There's a difference if we're taking about YOUR generations and MINE.

And like I've also said, that won't work for jobs like midwifery, nursing etc. People won't stop taking those jobs. So what chance have they got?

It's a sad state of affairs but it won't get better. A very defeatist attitude but because of where my heart lies I am never going to be rich. But I'll give a lot back.

But Cake those young people who are in a position to make such ' clever' life choices are already fortunate to be well educated and supported and advised enough, and to feel they have options. And your post also assumes that people are solely motivated by money- it's been shown over and over again that that's not the case.

We just seem to have it all wrong.

CelticOlympian and Garlicnuts I'm with you.

People really need to be a bit more honest about their own good luck and privileges in relation to their success. Yes there are amazing stories of people starting from nothing and succeeding against the odds but I think it's dishonest to say an individual's start in life has no bearing on their future.

I grew up in a household where both parents worked incredibly long hours in low paid jobs, (in two jobs at once sometimes in order to avoid benefits) just to keep a roof over our heads - were they rewarded for this hard-work and commitment? Well we had what we needed at a very basic level but no more. They are in their 70s now living in a council property managing ( just about) on a state pension.

So, to top rate tax payers who feel they've earned the right to enjoy the fruits of their labour - well done but you are no different from many others who also deserve to see their hard work pay off. Yes you've earned it but so have every other hard working family and it just might be that they weren't quite as lucky or privileged as you - nothing to do with you being more hard working or in anyway superior - raw talent and IQ are not earned they are gifts.

So when some people are worrying about paying 50% tax what will that actually mean to them? How will it affect their life? What vital thing will they not be able to have or do? Honestly how can the impact ever compare to not being able to pay your rent/utilities/food bills?

We are now in the 45% tax band and while the economic difficulties have impacted on my large, teenage family like anyone else, I still feel lucky. DH and I have both worked really hard to have a successful life both financially and emotionally but we were privileged with good educations, talent and supportive families and we've had an awful lot of luck too. Paying a high rate of tax seems like such a small price for a more fair and stable society for our children to grow up in and be part of.

Do you really want the alternative?

CelticOlympian and Garlicnuts I'm with you.

People really need to be a bit more honest about their own good luck and privileges in relation to their success. Yes there are amazing stories of people starting from nothing and succeeding against the odds but I think it's dishonest to say an individual's start in life has no bearing on their future.

I grew up in a household where both parents worked incredibly long hours in low paid jobs, (in two jobs at once sometimes in order to avoid benefits) just to keep a roof over our heads - were they rewarded for this hard-work and commitment? Well we had what we needed at a very basic level but no more. They are in their 70s now living in a council property managing ( just about) on a state pension.

So, to top rate tax payers who feel they've earned the right to enjoy the fruits of their labour - well done but you are no different from many others who also deserve to see their hard work pay off. Yes you've earned it but so have every other hard working family and it just might be that they weren't quite as lucky or privileged as you - nothing to do with you being more hard working or in anyway superior - raw talent and IQ are not earned they are gifts.

So when some people are worrying about paying 50% tax what will that actually mean to them? How will it affect their life? What vital thing will they not be able to have or do? Honestly how can the impact ever compare to not being able to pay your rent/utilities/food bills?

We are now in the 45% tax band and while the economic difficulties have impacted on my large, teenage family like anyone else, I still feel lucky. DH and I have both worked really hard to have a successful life both financially and emotionally but we were privileged with good educations, talent and supportive families and we've had an awful lot of luck too. Paying a high rate of tax seems like such a small price for a more fair and stable society for our children to grow up in and be part of.

Do you really want the alternative?

Excuse repeat.

Emphtic you are at librty to pay more than forty five percent - why don't you?

Ooh touched a nerve perhaps Wordfactory?

Communism is where all work is valued equally and look where that ended up.

What you are paid is related to many things - your skill set and education and how rare or common it is.
What your work produces in terms of economic output. The sate does not pay most people, businesses do so that work is compensated by the business and it is the business who decide what the work is worth.

Its not about hours/ stress / or contributions to the wider society.

Of course carers are of immense value to the people they are caring for and to the state in that they relieve the state of an expensive duty of care. They are not paid well because

1. The skills are common (although I think it takes a certain type of person to be a good carer)
2. There is little or no training and carers as a group are not organised, they dont lobby well.
3. They dont generate economic output - yes they save the state money but they dont generate money.

I come from a family who worked ridiculously hard. My mum had to support her family and wasn't allowed to finish school or go to university as her family needed the money. My dad put himself through university by working in the day and studying at night. They plowed all their money into the education of their children. They also supported their parents as well. They are now retiring with financial worries too. I am lucky they prioritised my education over their enjoyment of life but I don't feel I don't deserve my job?

everyone should have access to a good education. after that you should get paid to reflect your skillset and how hard you work. Empha - i see no reason why my husband shouldn't keep a decent amount of his salary - he has worked hard at school uni and now work. he has a high level of responsibility, works long hours and is away from home. his brother on the other hand has not worked hard, never accepted any promotions as he doesn't want responsibility and will only work within a few miles radius of where he lives. guess who owns the most, and why shouldn't he?

people can do well in life, but a lot does depend on a good education. they both came from a poor area, and MIL had to go short of food (though she still managed to find cash for cigarretes.)

IL's are now rolling in it as they seem to get every benefit in the book and periodically give us money as they go over their savings threshold otherwise

I am more then for contributing.

I think it's great to have a system there to help people that need it.

However unfortunately what is also does is allow a lot of people that just don't want to work and who are perfectly capable of doing so to sit around all day and claim money that comes from hard working people to do so.

That is what annoys me.

Me and DH pay thousands in tax every month. I know this will get sniped at but we have both worked exceptionally hard, both bought up in low income families, no paid for education and both went to the shitty local college for a year. We worked from 16, put in long days, unpaid hours, overtime, nights away from family etc to work our way up through our chosen professions over all these years. (Do not jump on my back I am not saying that other people have not done the same)!!!

It's very painful to know that not only is the thousands we pay in tax every month going to some people that don't deserve it, but that some of the people that really do don't seem to be getting it!!!

Is it just me or does the world feel a little bit upside down sometimes when I know of people who r screwing the system & using benefits to sit in their paid for house and drink & smoke & brag about not working, whilst some poor families are living day by day just trying to feed their children!!!