to think games have 18 certs for a reason?

[princelypurpleparrot]

Can someone please explain why a video game has an 18 cert? We're not a gaming household (our DC's are only tiny) so I have no experience. Earlier BIL came over with DN who's 10, and he'd just bought him COD which I saw was an 18.

I pointed at the cert and said "that's there for a reason, you know", and BIL just said "ooooh!" to which I just shrugged.

Like I said, I know nothing about games, but I do know that there's usually quite a big jump between a 15 and an 18 film, and I assume it's the level of violence in a game that gives it an 18 certificate?

So, AIBU to think that a 10yo shouldn't be bought an 18 cert game?

I just haven't came across any clear cut unbiased evidence that playing video games is at the root of the problems that this thread seems to be suggesting such asmore prone to being violent.

I am a great fan of 'clear cut unbiased evidence' (in so as it can be totally unbiased, but that's another matter), in fact producing evidence is what I do for a living (in a different topic). However, personally, in this case I do not feel the need for research evidence to help me make the decision not to let my 7 year old watch graphic images of people being shot, have their heads blown up or whatever. (And several of his friends of a similar age do play these games.) Why the hell would I want him to play a game like that? Just because everybody else does it? There is simply no need.

MN: it's unreasonable for school libraries to contain Jacqueline Wilson books on divorce, because some children get really upset that their own paerents will divorce. But the ethics of torturing people is an okay issue for children to handle if it's in pixels. I assume we'll just skate over the quality of the voice acting. No games developer has been putting money and effort into obtaining good quality voice acting. No sirree!

I love MN. Such a mix of people!

I live in the countryside....many families take part in hunting and shooting...the pheasant are bred within a small copse area...the children go often to handle them, feed them, etc...then they get released....many of the children take part in the 'beating' and take part in the hunt...have their own trained dog's and dog's in training...hunt and retrieve, etc..it's often the kids who are carrying the kills....they are beating when it's deer season, culling and various methods of management on the local estates....go fox hunting, horses, dog's and gun's....most of the children learn about the guns and are encouraged to ...many continue on to get their gun licence and continue with the 'sport's.....
I have yet to meet any blood thirsty, violent, cruel children from this exposure from a very young age....

There are many lesson's and contradictions in life too...we teach our children to love animal's but Daisy the cow is your roast beef on sunday, the nature program when the predator eats the victim, goodies and baddies in all the stories, books, dvd's, movies...there is loads for kids to navigate, realities, facts and within all of this...fantasy, pretend, meeting basic human needs, practicing behaviour's and learning includes everything...even the negative stuff....human's have aggression, violence, anger....if we think we can harness it and control it and pretend it doesn't exist simply because we don't like it....where does that repression channel itself too????...I believe that is far more dangerous ground to tread tbh...it's just my theory but I really don't think it's a bad thing for children to be allowed to investigate those feelings and feel them to whatever degree....some of these games are channeling these things and I think it makes for a more rounded person, with a working knowledge and experience....knowing what feelings are about and knowing how to control them...doesn't it all take practice, experience, exposure and conclusion....I believe good will overcome evil..in the majority of situation's....but everyone needs to be exposed in order to find their answers....you bite, kick, hit, etc when you are 2/3 yrs...hopefully from experience of being victim and predator...children have learnt that this isn't a good way to behave and by the time they are 5/6...this is slowing down and gone for most of them....

I bet most people have the news on in the evening...what do our children see there nowadays?....reality!!...gun's, bomb's, etc, kill people, hurt people....

...my DS plays games which are many years rated above his actual age and am left puzzled by his fear when Dr Who is on...he shy's away from many an episode of this.....and I think it's actually because...the idea that something can mutate and become dangerous and scarey from being seemingly human...is far more terrifying a concept than the pretence of playing shooting games, etc....

I actually believe that Horrid Henry bullying his little brother mercilessly and deliberately causing horrible issue's and his mother and father constantly dealing with the fall out of his bad attitude and Tracey Beaker and the stuff that goes on with these children in that programme is really bad, too often ....and is far worse and impressionable....I banned them both in our house!!!!

you banned horrid henry but you let them play adult video games.....and shoot animals.

moronic.

That's a lot of dots...

But hey, after that post, no-one can say I was exaggerating about rating Jacqueline Wilson worse than 18 rated games.

As an aside, I don't think they usually show people being shot in the head and blood and gore spurting out on the news, as you might see on COD.

There is no blood or gore spurting out on COD. It's a CGI image, a drawing, a cartoon. They have no qualms showing serious leg breaks repeated over and over on the football channels and most european news channels show people getting shot or blown up no the news and have no qualms about it or the parts of bodies after a bus crash etc.

As whatthewhat says county folks have been shooting and hunting since we were small and someone getting blooded at your first hunt was a weekly thing.

Ah noblegiraffe. Was thinking of that very article.

angry birds is a cartoon, COD tries very hard to be realistic.

So is daffy duck and elmer used to get drunk and shoot his gun off but hey some of you put toddlers in front of the TV.

it isn't a cartoon, you're fundamentally missing the point.

Novack - the difference between news footage and games play is in the intention - on the one hand to inform, make people aware, make them take action to protest. It's not shown repeatedly. Games play the intention is to enjoy, participate, gain good feelings and objectify the person you are shooting.

I don't let my children watch news containing graphic images either.

whatthe

"it's just my theory but I really don't think it's a bad thing for children to be allowed to investigate those feelings and feel them to whatever degree....some of these games are channeling these things and I think it makes for a more rounded person, with a working knowledge and experience....knowing what feelings are about and knowing how to control them...doesn't it all take practice, experience, exposure and conclusion....I believe good will overcome evil..in the majority of situation's....but everyone needs to be exposed in order to find their answers...."

I find your theory interesting and agree up to a point. Children do need to experience emotions in order to learn how to control them. But I'm not sure video games teach children how to control their emotions and not enact them in behaviour. Parents do that.

no, not on the news but yes in the news, the aftermath of shooting's, bombing's, dead real people covered in blood, lost limbs, starving half dead people, babies almost dead lying in mothers arms...the news is full of real life awful things....and who switches this off or removes the kids from the room???...people sit and eat dinner watching this atrocious real life stuff,... people living under a plastic sheet and fighting each other for scraps of food, police brutality of innocent people and children, bloodied bodies lying on makeshift beds..or on the street's..but...it's not 'real' people on the games...it's graphic's...there IS a big difference....and there is a very clear difference....it's not real...kids know this....they are not stupid!!!...and the graphics are not that realistic if you look at them...they just are not...games are about imagining yourself in the situation...putting yourself in the war, battle, survival mode sort of...like a movie...and it's role play, character mode...not real!!!

I didn't say I approved of any game and did very early on in this thread say that I am careful about the game format and content and that sometimes the reason for some ratings on games is partly to do with complexity, strategy and tactic's and the more complex they are the higher the rating....the ratings are guides to playing the game...it's not all about the graphical blood, gore and what not...it's overall concept led as well as content and detail.....GTA is a disgrace for anyone to play however...that game is the worst thing I have ever seen...

I have boundaries...I am not moronic thanks...but I'm not hysterical!!!...I'm simply open-minded, a realist and believe there is a place for everything....pretending they don't exist is naive and probably quite stupid to try to do...and since when did saying no to kids stop them from doing something anyway....??? jeez!!!..you try to stop them...their friend has it and it's their favourite game...probably goes to the other kids house loads so they can play it!!!

Its the 'oh no I won't ever buy a toy gun for wee tommy',....but the child picks up a stick and plays with it as a gun anyway, or builds one from the lego/duplo blocks...just buy the gun and get on with it....!!
'yes, we are kind and careful and gentle with all animals and creatures and everything is just lovely'...then you stamp on the spider on your carpet, serve up beef, pig and what not, run over the rabbit on the road because to swerve or brake may cause an accident...oh look there's a dead badger or whatever...what do kids do...they want a closer look, poke it with a stick, etc....not blood thirsty and cruel...just curious...

And how many parents have caged animals at home???....a bird that never flies, a rabbit that never burrows, guinea pigs, hamsters, gerbils, and rats live in large groups, so do rabbits...what do we do and that's ok???...stick 1/2 in cage and stare at them, forget to feed them, can't be bothered cleaning this horrible home/prison we have put them in....that's cruel but acceptable???
It depends on the game or whatever in question and the child in question...the situation.....and the parent(s) and where your views come from...

AND...maybe it is even fortunate to some degree that children and young people have some kind of concept of what a war, battlefield or situation would be like for real...and maybe it is also how we can be a bit more empathetic towards those who have seen war, been maimed, suffered and lost lives....maybe it brings it into a more realistic sphere for people...the news we see, gamers gaming, etc...not that the only way to have any concept of what could lie ahead is to actually be there...on that front line with a real gun in your hand....maybe it has it's positives....maybe gaining some degree of it from simulation and graphics isn't all bad news????

You need an open mind to look at things unpleasant and embrace them for what they are and that something is always going to bring the bad bits in life back to you....maybe kids should be exposed a bit...how else to know right from wrong and good from bad.....experience and practice...even the bad bits...surely???

......I like dots......!!!! ...and my post is just theory...just musings...just question's...I never said I was right....just that it's maybe worth looking at some things differently...no harm in thinking and wondering....not yet anyway hahahahahaha

So far I can report that my DS is non-aggressive, non-confrontational and is kind to animals....understands that cruel, bad things happen...has a strong sense of right and wrong and honesty and knows what sort of person he wants to become....based on his experiences so far....gaming included ....I'm very proud!!....He's ASD/ADHD and alot more sorted than an awful lot of kids I know....keeping it real

".and who switches this off or removes the kids from the room???"

I do. And equally, I could say - if there's so much upsetting shit in our lives, why add to that?

I would dispute that gaming encourages empathy. Quite the reverse, in fact. Anders Breivik, after he'd decided he was going to kill dozens of people, deliberately hid himself away for a year and played violent games in order to desensitise himself enough to go through with it.

Children are not "stupid" but there aren't adults and they process and rationalise things differently. If you have children yourself you should know this - they get the wrong end of the stick about things all the time.

I think that children should be exposed to unpleasant things in time, at the right age, with support and discussion. That's not what playing video games does.

I have no issue with your dots, but can I just say that you don't need an apostrophe when you are using a plural.

yea thats a funny one because my laptop keeps telling me I'm doing it wrong without my apostrophies and you are telling me it is wrong with but it was my laptop that told me to do it this way...I didn't have them there til the machine red lined my words!!!....hahahahahaha!!

Sorry. I regret writing that. It sounded bitchy, but I was finding it hard to read.

Well, that's one set of points of view. On the other hand, your post reminds me of a letter from a war veteran (and gamer) to PCGamer who complained that CoD was unrealistic, on a number of points!

Anders Breivik is also a Bible believing christian. Time to close the churches then is it?

novack did you read the article linked to? Breivik said he used COD to train for his massacre. Armies use it to train. This was used to argue that these games are realistic, not that they cause massacres.

But to be honest, the thought that Breivik managed to kill so many people because he had practised beforehand on a game is a little unsettling. When the army trains people to kill, it also usually inculcates them with other values at the same time.

There is no blood or gore spurting out on COD. It's a CGI image, a drawing, a cartoon."

So you'd let a child watch Saw or The Human Centipede then? After all it's just special effects, it's not real blood.

Having had to look on IMDB for the synopsis of your films I suspect there is a far greater disturbing psychological element to these two horror films than just special effects.

NovackNGood Tue 28-Aug-12 16:37:34
I suspect there is a far greater disturbing psychological element to these two horror films than just special effects.

As in perhaps gunning down civilians in a Russian airport, for example?

Breivik had already a warped mental head going on...he 'used' the games to act out his plans already made to kill people....they helped him in such a way to fuel his blood lust and desire to kill.....the games did not make the monster though...he was already a monster....it would be interesting to know his life back story...what may have influenced him becoming driven to kill people as an accumulation of his history and life experiences....it's unlikely it was gaming that is responsible....just probably satisfied him to some degree, the desires he held and the mind he had already....

I must confess to have not read much about him really...

Jessie: I know you can play GTA by "just driving" and ignoring the rest of the game's content. I have done the driving around trying to be law-abiding thing occasionally (gets boring quick ) My point re: the "driving bits" in GTA is that the Dad either had no understanding of the content of game he was buying, or did not care. Either way it was part of my job to educate him. He chose not to listen, so what can you do? I'd also add that yes, while it is entirely possible to "just drive" in GTA, if that's all you want your kid to do you'd be much better off buying one of the 27 million driving/racing games widely available.

I found the BBFC report for whoever was asking, relevant bit highlighted here:

"?The element of interactivity in games carries some weight when we are considering a video game. We were particularly interested to see that this research suggests that, far from having a potentially negative impact on the reaction of the player, the very fact that they have to interact with the game seems to keep them more firmly rooted in reality. People who do not play games raise concerns about their engrossing nature, assuming that players are also emotionally engrossed. This research suggests the opposite; a range of factors seems to make them less emotionally involving than film or television. The adversaries which players have to eliminate have no personality and so are not real and their destruction is therefore not real, regardless of how violent that destruction might be. This firm grasp on reality seems to extend to younger players, but this is no reason to allow them access to adult rated games, as they themselves often admit that they find the violence in games like Manhunt very upsetting. Parents should not treat video games in the same way they would board games. We will continue to examine very carefully those games which come to us, to flag any concerns we have and, if necessary, to use our statutory powers."

Link: www.bbfc.co.uk/newsreleases/2007/04/playing-video-games-bbfc-publishes-research/

Sorry for the wall of text!