To be a bit disgusted that so many people seem to think it is ok not to pay their cleaner if they are going on holiday

[BranchingOut]

I employ a cleaner for 2.5 hours a week and have done for a few years. Both the cleaner I currently use and her predecessor are young, single women who make a living by adding together a range of cleaning jobs. So they work for a number of families over the week and are generally renting a room in a houseshare. Getting by, but their income is vulnerable.

I am quite conscious that they are not making a fortune and so always pay consistently and employ them year round - including during any holiday we take and for any sick days/odd absences.

However, it has happened on more than one occasion that, at this time of year, they have come to me and either asked for a salary advance or for extra hours because they are short of cash and worried about bills. Each time the reason has been that 'other families have been away on holiday during the summer and therefore have not needed them'. So, one year I asked our cleaner to do some gardening in return for the extra hours she needed and I am about to bring forward the salary of the other for next month so that her bills will clear.

We live in a London borough where there are a lot of very wealthy people - yet this August/September situation has occured twice, with two separate cleaners and their client groups. Do families really think this is ok? I regard this as penny pinching of the worst kind - to 'save' on the salary of someone more vulnerable than themselves while they themselves are off on holiday.

AIBU/totally out of touch?

'Alot of self employed people do fiddle the tax'

What a ridiculous thing to say. I'm self-employed, and i don't fiddle my tax! A lot of employed people fiddle their tax too.

I pay my cleaner for the hours she works. I don't have her on a regular day so I don't live my life around her. She comes on an arranged date each time and, if something crops up (eg doctor's appointment), then I just go and come back while she's still at our house.

We pay if she comes to clean! But we never cancel. If were away, I ask for extras to get done - came back last time to all the kids toys having been sorted as a bonus to the light shades, oven etc I'd asked for.

If Rach doesn't come for some reason or other, she doesn't get the £ we leave out for her. I asked about direct payment, and was promised the bank details, but they never showed. Never seen an invoice or receipt, but then equally never saw one for music lessons yet. Don't think its a given that no invoice or receipt means undeclared income.

First of all I, who rarely gets offended by anything, am offended by the implication that I must fiddle my tax since I am self employed.

I also don't have a cleaner, but I do have a guy that mows my lawn. Are you suggesting I should continue to pay him all winter when there is no lawn mowing to be done?

Thanks everyone!

op hasnt come back
I hadn't come back to the thread before because I was enjoying the rest of my evening and er, sleeping!

Just to set things straight - I wouldn't pay her to do nothing while we were away, it has always been the case that she comes in to do the normal clean then any extra cleaning jobs that need to be done.

Looking down the thread the split seems to be even between those who think I am daft as a brush for even thinking about it and those who feel the same and/or would have their cleaner come in to do the normal jobs while they are away.

Notes that some people even seem to be strangely 'wound up' about the fact that I might think this way!

I take on board the argument about the nature of self employment and have freelanced at times myself. One of my family has been working as a locum doctor and of course, when they don't work, they don't get paid. But I think a self employed Dr, accountant, IT contractor or PR specialist is probably paid enough per day in order to set aside money to cover those fallow times. Maybe cleaners should ask for more to cover these periods, but what kind of bargaining power do they have in the market?

Also, the point about it depending on the original agreement is also a good one - 'We will need you for regular cleaning, but some weeks it might be more than others,' is a very different arrangement to 'We need you every Wednesday afternoon'.

But, clearly, the logic of 'she is self employed so should be being paid enough to cover those times' isn't panning out, as it has happened twice to me that these two separate individuals have run into financial trouble at this time of year - both giving the same reason.

It still just amazes me that it doesn't seem to enter these other employers' heads that although they are going away for two weeks, their cleaner might not be equally delighted to take a two week gap in pay. Find a property shows that the average price of a two bed flat in the local area is about £400K and a three bed house is £750K - so you have to be pulling in quite a big joint income to service a mortgage around here, yet when that couple goes off on holiday for a fortnight the cleaner working for £8 per hour should just go home and reflect upon the workings of a free market?

I don't feel remotely guilty about having a cleaner, but I also do feel a certain obligation to consider the effects that my decisions might have on her finances.

Cleaners are like child minders often.

They want to be self employed and have the kudos they think that brings them by not being employed but also the security of holiday/sick pay paid for by their employer. You can't have it both ways.

You are not her employer if she is self employed. Its up to you if you pay her. Seems like she is working whilst you are away so earning the money you give her.

This isn't an issue of self employement. A cleaners' fee should include cover for things like illness and homeowners being away. A private company I've used did not charge me for cleans I did not have when I was on holiday. It makes sense. I am self employed in a different line of work, I charge what I need to cover my needs in their absence.

"Notes that some people even seem to be strangely 'wound up' about the fact that I might think this way!"

Perhaps they are reacting to your being "disgusted" and the judgemental sound of "do families really think this is OK?" and ho you regard it as the worst kind of penny pinching and other holier-than-though judgemental stuff?

You set the tone of the thread, others have responded to that.

If they want to be secure in their pay and hours they should have a contract signed stating that the regular booked hours should be paid for even if the cleaner is not required and a notice period of say four weeks to end contract. Obviously if the cleaner is ill or on holiday no fee is charged. However, some will be working cash in hand and not decaring, then it is tough.

When we go on holiday, I ask my cleaner to come in and do some "extra" bits that don't get done in her weekly clean. Sometimes she wants to do that, sometimes she doesn't. Not a young single woman though. She cleans in addition to the family income, it doesn't stand or fall on her alone.

Classic drip feed... Not until you were pulled up on it, did you mention that they do still do work for you when you are away. Which, I would assume, they do not do for the people who don't pay them when the family is on holiday.

So if you went on holiday and they didn't clean for you when you are away, would you still pay them?

Er, no not drip feeding. (Quakes in boots at thought of accusation of that terrible MN crime! )

Please look at my OP - where I did state that I employ them while we are away:

I am quite conscious that they are not making a fortune and so always pay consistently and employ them year round - including during any holiday we take and for any sick days/odd absences.

But some people interpreted that as us paying them while we are on holiday but not asking them to continue working - so I did come back to clarify that.

@soupdragon
Regarding: "Notes that some people even seem to be strangely 'wound up' about the fact that I might think this way!"

Perhaps they are reacting to your being "disgusted" and the judgemental sound of "do families really think this is OK?" and ho you regard it as the worst kind of penny pinching and other holier-than-though judgemental stuff?

Well, if no one was ever shocked/surprised/disgusted/disappointed then there would be very few threads in AIBU.

'holier-than-thou' - yes, off to polish halo!

I was just somewhat amused at some particular posters returning to the thread not once, not twice, but several times to state how ridiculous they found this idea.

To answer your question Tee - whether I would still pay them if we went away and she didn't come in?

I can't really see that arising - I would always find them something to do. There is always deep cleaning that needs to be done.

I think if we went away for months then I would probably try to see if she could work for a friend while we were gone.

Surely it depends on the basis they are working for you?
My cleaner has pretty good working conditions. In school holidays she brings her kid along (which is fine with me, but I can't imagine many other jobs where you could do it) Also she has a fixed day she normally comes but I am really flexible about swapping around if she has appointments or even if she just gets an invitation out.

I don't pay her if we're away and don't need a clean, but I pay a good rate for the work she does and she's very happy with her terms and conditions

I have been a cleaner and have never been asked to work when the people are on hols, so therefore have not been paid. I also have spent a lot of time temping for schools and unis, which means when they close over xmas/easter, i don't get paid. It is frustrating working in an office where everyone is looking forward to xmas and i am dreading it, because i will be 2 weeks out of pocket.

Just comes with not being salaried unfortunatly. Loads of industries use labour like this. This seems to be the way things are progressing - only ever being paid for what you do and having no security/hol/sick etc but the hourly rate still only matching min wage (rather than making up for it by paying more per hour).

Clearly you've missed the point I was making.

op it's your how very dare they tone,the righteous indignation
overuse of emotive terms
and inference your marvelous with a social conscience,whilst everyone else is penny-pinching gits

YABU. It's the same for everyone else who is self-employed, whether a builder, writer, proofreader, actor, plumber, gardener, tutor or courier.

I hate the way people talk about the cleaner they 'employ' and refer to themselves as an employer. You're not.

If you have a regular self-employed cleaner come to your house on a weekly basis, I think it is incredibly mean not to have her come when you are on holiday and pay her as usual. It is, however, just fine to ask her to do different cleaning tasks when you are away. I had a cleaner for many years when I was younger and single and she would come when I was on holiday for three weeks in the summer and spring clean. It was lovely!

I'm self employed. If I don't work I don't get paid. If I'm sick I don't get paid.
When I do work I'm not paid a fortune.
Why would I pay my cleaner for a service not provided?

A cleaner is running a business even if they are a sole trader. You are buying services from that business. Vastly different from employing someone yourself where you have to pay holiday pay. The OP has more money than sense.