To be a bit shocked that every one of my friends has done this?

[benetint]

I've spoken to all my friends that have older children about how they have selected schools for their dcs. Nearly all of them have said (in confidence) that they have basically hung around outside the gates at chucking out time to see how the parents and kids coming out look/behave/sound.

Is it time to get a new set of friends? Or would you join them?

Oh yes, don't know of anyone who physically did this, but plenty of talk on the grapevine along these lines.

We've had to call the police to break up fights between parents outside school.

Nothing like that happens inside school. Ever.

One of our local schools that parents are desperate to get their dc into has pupils who stream out of school screaming, swearing, chucking litter etc. I actually phoned the school to report it (the littering especially bothered me).

Wouldn't send my child there if you paid me.

DH - who has been to hundreds and hundreds of schools - is firmly of the opinion that 30 seconds outside the gate of a secondary at kicking out time tells you all you need to know about discipline, SMT engagement and ethos.

I don't think children should be called idiots pombear. How do you tell from looking at kids coming out of a school gate if their parents have told them not to try at school?

Rather than being creepy and hanging around school gates in a slightly stalkerish sort of way wouldn't it be better to try and get involved in the school community, visit some spring fairs or something, that way you could actually get an idea of how the teachers/parents/kids react with each other.

Oh, and schools that let the girls leave with obscenely short skirts and boys and girls tying their ties with a ridiculously huge knot at the top...? See, really small things but they speak volumes. And girls caked in make-up. I'm sure a school can still be good in many ways, but these things do show what the ethos of the school is like.

At Secondary level, getting involved with "school community" is the FASTEST way to be misled about a school.

At my DCs school the carol service is exclusively middle class - unlike the school. As is Rock Challenge, DofE, Concerts, outings, you name it.

As I say, ONLY when you see the whole school at once - in that daily snapshot - do you get the feel of the place.

Most kids coming out of secondary school don't look fresh-faced little angels,no matter what the school,which is why some parents want out-of-area schools because they've never seen the kids as they are! I used to catch a bus regularly and sit suffering the bad behaviour of boys from a well-known highly-regarded boys' independent school.

You do not have children who are lovely at home, lovely at school and revert to feral/anti-social behaviour when on pavements or on the bus - because they have been brought up to behave appropriately

You do however have children who are (reasonably) polite in public, know how to toe the line at school and revert to prima donnas at home - because they can manipulate their parents.

Any child that exhibits anti-social behaviour in public, generally exhibits that at school and is often the norm at home.

Perceived poorly performing schools (by results) often have the best pastoral care, hence poor results because parents will flock for mile to avail them selves of a well functioning SEN dept.

Most people when looking at league tables only look at A8-C grades - but if you have a core of SEN pupils who have over achieved, but still only get D or E grades, to outsiders that looks like "failure". The fact those children went to a school and were predicted G or F goes largely over looked.

I learned my lesson the hard way - never discount a school by reputation. Look at all schools. Look outside as well, go to the precinct, ride a bus with them, talk to the teachers if you must but seek out the TAs and support staff who aren't always primed with the jargon and sound bites.

Personal perspective - never trust a school that doesnt let you lose with the pupils!!! If they throw the pupils as guides with staff dotted around, that is much better - you will get a brilliant picture from the children.

I live in Scotland too but put a placement request in for dd1 based on hmi report, local knowledge, the areas which were in the catchment area and yes looking at the children and parents who go there.

We then moved into the catchment area.

Most parents won't be waiting for their DC outside the school gates at secondary school. I was thinking it was more a primary thing?

I would drop in to the school (here in Sweden that is much easier as schools are open with no security) at a random time, just pop in and ask a question at reception or something like that also the playgrounds are public parts here so you could sit on a bench in the kids playground drinking a coffee reading a paper keeping an eye on what is going on, I think that gives you a good idea of the school. But seeing what children/parents look and sound like I think is extremely judgemental.

I'd say it is a good lesson to teach our kids not to think bad things about people because they look or sound different to you.

What does girls with short skirts and caked in make-up tell you about the school?

that it doesn't have a very expensive uniform?

The league tables tell you whether the kids learn in school or not.

public parks

i think its a brilliant way to find out if you'd want your child to go to a school - look at who comes out and how they behave.

Never even occurred to me to do this!
But sounds a good idea if you don't have any other basis to go on!

do go in as well, of course. try to get an appointment to look round during lesson time, but 'go to the loo' at change of lessons - that will give you an idea of what the school is like. and ofsted reports - but ofsted are only in for two or three days and they see what they want to see, and what leadership want them to see.

Most of the people I know just sent their kids to the local school.

What's the problem?

I'm a teacher and I did this before deciding whether to apply for jobs! I also hung around in the canteen at lunchtime and had a wander around the school at break. Seeing how pupils behave tells you a lot about the school. Seeing how they interact with each other, staff, parents, the public etc is very useful.

indigo Nope, it doesn't tell me that. It tells me that the girls are allowed to wear make-up and wear short skirts. Expensive OR cheap.

And that tells me a lot about the ethos of the school.

Secondary school students are still children. Children IMHO should not wear make up or short skirts.

yabu.

As with usualsuspect, more or less everyone I know just sent their DCs to the local school. I haven't even looked at the school report.

The school is oversubscribed, has a reputation for being good/friendly, and its on my doorstep. But tbh even if it wasn't, I would have still sent my DCs there, as I believe strongly in local schools / local pupils.

As for school pick-up time, there is this one woman who is always shouting at her unruly kids...oh wait a minute, that's me! it seems fairly normal to me. No drugs, inappropriate clothing etc, but tbf it is only infant school .

We picked primary based on visiting a school we knew our friends thought good and were using. We picked secondary by visiting the two closest and picking the one we liked better. There are plenty of university educated parents like us at both schools. There are also plenty of parents who aren't like that.

i hadn't thought of doing this deliberately but i used to work near two schools and had to use the same sandwich shops and bus stops as the pupils - the difference was enormous, one was full of slightly rowdy but ultimately polite teenagers, some in large groups, some in small, mixed-sex friendship groups. The other showed nothing but utterly horrible behaviour - shouting at strangers (including old people) in the street, pushing, shoving, blatant bullying in the street, all kids in big single-sex groups shouting over each other for attention.... NOTHING in the ofsted reports, i mean NOTHING would make me send any child of mine to that second school. Even if not all the children are like that (which i'm sure they're not) I wouldnt' want them suffering that atmosphere and school culture.

This might be a bit 'out there' but when looking at secondary schools my kids and I went together and had discussions about which schools they'd prefer to go to. Shocking I know.

Two of my kids go to outstanding schools - judging by their Facebook/twitter feeds the kids there ain't no angels outside of school. Put any group of teens together and you'll see shenanigans.