To think someones personal tragedy shouldn't totally negate their sensitivity to others?

[waterwatereverywhere]

This is my first post so be gentle with me. I'll try to summarise.

A very close friend lost a baby at term 2 years ago. Awful, devastating and the worst thing that can happen to anyone. Everyone rallied around, were tremendously supportive and did the very best they could in terrible circumstances. Very bravely she has publicly raised awareness, fund raised and documented her personal journey. Shortly after her loss she and her DP had a luxury holiday - everyone was pleased that although it offered her no relief from her loss she had a chance to recuperate a little. 2 months later there followed several city breaks, designer shopping trips, concerts and theatre trips. Again, everyone was pleased she had a tiny release amid the pain all be they just distractions. Over the 2 years that followed, via a blog and social networking she has charted her fund raising, her efforts to TTC and her feelings. It has been both heartbreaking and heartwarming.

Then gradually over several months the posts about her journey have diminished leaving only posts about a frankly lavish lifestyle. During this time close friends have suffered personal losses, divorce, illness, family deaths and financial difficulties following redundancy. These have not been acknowledged by her, but the posts about meals in wait list restaurants and holidays have increased 10 fold.

AIBU to wonder if it is OK for her to be unable to show sensitivity to others due to the nature of her personal grief? Much as I care about her and am pleased she is finding some small happiness is it natural that she can't empathise with others their less significant losses? If she had not been through what she has I would think she was being completely insensitive and dare I say, flaunting material things to friends who are financial on their knees (not me, before anyone says I am jealous)

Or do i just sound like an insensitive bitch?

Daintynuts has it spot on IMO.

Pain comes in many forms, and other peoples pain is no less real just because they know someone who has lost a baby. Losing a baby is a terrible thing, but it doesn't come with some kind of trump card that means you can ignore the struggles of your friends and still expect them to want to be friends with you years later. There are other things that are as difficult to deal with, and as people deal with things differently anyway, then it can't be about whose problems are technically higher up some kind of tragedy scale.

Your friend deserves understanding, no doubt about that, but she also owes it to her friends who are going through their own difficulties.

One of my twin daughters was stillborn three years ago. It has changed me in so many ways. I am far more selfish, and small-family-unit orientated than I ever was before. I still have empathy and sympathy for others over big things, and try to offer practical support when I can, but I frankly don't care about a lot of stuff any more. In my own life too. Nothing is ever going to devastate me as much as that, so very little upsets me now. I hardly ever cry, but used to be very emotional. Have also been treated for PTSD, I expect this is linked.

I don't think there is much that can compare with the loss of a child though. Has anyone said that who has been through it? People just don't get it unless they have been through it which is the crux of the issue.

I am a few years on from my second late loss and had a healthy baby afterwards which took a while ttc but was the healing point for me although you never totally get anywhere near over it. Before that time everything else seemed very trivial. Somebody's job loss would not compare in any way with the extreme pain and isolation.

Years on I can now act pretty normally around people, always empathise with friends whatever the difficulty in their lives and deal with my loss. But it takes a long time to get to that place, more than two years for sure.

I think people who don't understand it or try to minimise it or say it is just like any other problem in life have not been through it so have no idea.

Oh and by the way, there is nothing worse than your friends congratulating themselves for 'rallying round' after this kind of bereavement. It is distasteful IMO to give yourselves credit for this. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I really don't like it.

Outraged you have no idea.

Loopy - the 'rallying round' was simply a statement of fact. No we were not all giving ourselves congratulatory, hearty pats on the back and high fives for being such great friends. Just stating that there was a strong support network and close friends felt pretty impotent tbh - we all did what we could while knowing there was nothing we could DO to give her the one thing that she wanted that would make it better. That we all cared so fucking much we would and did do anything we could. Not because we're all such 'terrific' people but because we wanted to.

To the people that read it as "how dare she spend money instead of give to charity" No no no - totally not what I was getting at - apologies if that was unclear. She and her family and friends have been amazing in their fund raising.

What I was getting at is the change in tone, from all the stuff she has been doing for SANDS and her local hospital when her posts, conversations and blogs were actively seeking the inclusion of her friends, their involvement and comments, help with work and research. And now its almost an active exclusion of those same people - yes, I suppose in a horrible way back to the 'old her' but with an edge. And with the insights from here it makes sense. I wrongly thought she was getting through the worst (no there is no way of wording that without someone jumping on me for being ignorant or insensitive) Her words, actions and answers to direct questions have led us to believe she was starting to look forward.

So no I don't feel told off - I think I've been misinterpreted in places but I'm grateful for the viewpoints of people who have been through baby loss.

I'm going to go a bit against the grain here and say that while I'd give someone a lot of leeway after a terrible bereavement, I wouldn't just stay friends and put up with bad behaviour forever. Not saying I wouldn't understand, but I wouldn't just accept and keep someone in my life forever that wasn't being at all a nice person.

I imagine she'd rather be facebooking "xx said his first word today!" "Can't believe xx is 2 already!" Etc.
But she can't, so maybe she's filling the void with holiday posts.
What she's like face-to-face is the only thing I'd worry about. And it is hard to feel you've reached the 'time limit' on your grief, when you're not over it.

I have never experienced a loss but I was trying to conceive for a long time (I don't for a second think the loss of a baby is anything like infertility but just the ttc made me into a different person.)

When I was ttc I had no compasion for any problem that my friends with kids had, I was a horrid friend in many ways. I saw it like oh so you are getting divorced, but you have 3 lovely children my situation is worse, or Oh you lost your job but you have a new baby my situation is worse. The feeling of envy was so deep, I felt envious of my own mother getting prenant with me so easily. I felt like every baby/scan pic on facebook was a stab in my chest, every "DC got start of the week" post made me weep. I can not imagine how hard child related posts must be when you have lost a child. Maybe she boasts about her lifestyle because she feels like it is the only thing she has. I know I was wrong feeling like that, I must say that I was pretty good at not showing my true emotions.

The only thing I wanted was a baby, I didn't care about my lovely home and amazing DP, all I had on my mind was baby baby baby, when the only thing you really want is so hard to get unfortunatly it is sometimes very hard to be a supportive friend.

I hope I havnät offended anyone by comparing ttc to loss, I can't for a second imagine how painfull the loss of a child is.

There's something really distasteful, for want of a better word here. OP it just sounds as if you don't like your friend, full stop - didn't like her before and don't like her now. How many times are you going to tell us she is 'boastful'? - and all this talk of 'us', what does that mean? Is there a group of friends who are all sharing their (hostile) opinions about this friend, whose baby died two years ago? (TWO years ago? That's the blink of an eye in grieving years).

Because that's going to seep into your relationship with her, believe me. There's nothing more likely to make someone clam up and stop 'sharing' or showing vulnerability than the feeling they are being discussed and judged.

Why all the talk of not knowing whether to 'step in' or not? Why is it your business to tell her you feel her behaviour is out of line? If you don't like the way she writes about her lifestyle, don't read it. If you don't like the way she treats friends, it's up to them what they do, or don't do, about it. If they are hard up and don't like your friend 'flaunting' her restaurant trips on facebook, then who SERIOUSLY would tell her they shouldn't be posting about it, rather than just hiding the updates??

If you don't like the way she treats you, personally, then you can cool the relationship, end it, decide you want to try and change the basis of it - whatever. It's up to you where you draw the line.

If you want to lecture someone who lost a baby 2 years ago (especially when you don't, I assume, have a comparable experience) about what is and isn't appropriate subject material for her blog or facebook updates, then I think you are being hugely insensitive and have really lost perspective.

btw, just to point out the obvious -

Your friend is on facebook, and can presumably read other Friends' updates etc - see their pics and some comments. She uses Facebook in other words.

She will have seen updates about people's kids. Photos of them. Pregnancy and birth announcements will have come
and gone since her baby died. I would guess that she hasn't demanded that everyone she knows stop talking about their children where she might be able to 'hear' it.

I think that will have been harder than being poverty stricken and reading about someone else's theatre trips and holidays.

Quite so, fruitybread.

Also, I know it's probably only me as other bereaved mothers seem to use this word with no problems, but I cal I please talk about this word 'loss'?

I did not 'lose' a baby. I knew very well where she was, I did not misplace her, she died. 'Loss' also conjures images of slightly inconvenient bleeding situations. A still birth is the death of a baby at birth. You have to go through full labour / c-section to give birth to a dead baby. 'Loss' seems to trivialise this in the most horrific way.

In my case, I'm fairly sure I went overboard in celebrating DTD2's milestones on FB etc. This may have pissed my friends off, in which case I hope they stopped pretending to be my friends and buggered off my FB page.

It sounds as though she is using her blog as a means of dealing with everything.

If people don't like what she has to say, they don't need to read it.

Sometimes people do find it difficult to be sensitive to others when they feel devastated inside.

Loopy I absolutely agree with everything you have said about the use of the word 'loss'.

Loopy I'm sorry if the the use of 'loss' upsets or offends you - that is certainly not my intention. It is the term SANDS themselves use and the one I (and probably many others) have become familiar with.

Fruitybread You know what? You are probably right. Our friendship had waned years ago because she was quite dismissive of others, and often smug and self involved. And I feel bloody horrible saying that!
Which is why I think on reflection my original AIBU is probably all wrong and should have said 'AIBU to want to distance myself from a friendship despite all that my friend has been through" or something. I have been so afraid of feeling this about her after everything - as though I am the bad person if I think of her as anything less than a saint. Fact is this IS who she is, it's who she had become years ago. She isn't like this because of what she has been through.

Loopy I agree with you re the word "loss". I hate it too.

Water In all honesty, if this tragedy hadn't happened would you still be as close as you are now? You said that you were growing apart before this happened.

I get what you are saying, I truly do. My closest bereavement was my mum who died in a tragic way when I was young. I must admit that for a few years I didn't accept anyone moaning about their mum. I got even worse when my friends mum died I still didn't behave appropriately, I think down to the fact that her mum died of cancer and everyone said how her mum "had fought and tried her hardest to stay alive and was so brave and would never give up and leave her children willingly" whilst my mum did it to herself. Grief is a very odd confusing thing.

Reading your latest post, no I don't think you are UR in distancing yourself from your friend. We can't be all things to all people. Just do it a nice and kind way. I have to say, I would have hated anyone to be friends with me purely on the basis of my bereavement. If the friendship has run its course, then so be it. There doesn't have to be a drama about it, you can still be kind and supportive.

It's complicated. In the past 3 yrs I've had stage 3 cancer, serious health problems with dh and eldest dc. My mother died last year too. I'm still coming to terms with these things (and they're not as bad as losing a baby at term). It's hard to describe but in a way these challenges can split a person in two - half of you struggles with dark days and pain, and the other half compensates for the darkness and becomes an over bright and cheerful person who has nights out and holidays and other treats "just like everyone else". It's a mask. Sorry but you need to cut your friend some slack.

Meant to say. Even though my mum died (not for one minute comparing it to losing a child) I could still be a cow, I could still be unreasonable. And whilst I was given a fair amount of leeway after mum died I couldn't get away with being a bitch forever. I know that is going to come out wrong, I can't think of a better way to phrase it. Yes grief changes you, but it very rarely turns a nice person into a horrible one permanently.

annie I'm sorry you are going through all that. Yes it is incredibly complicated. Possibly I am thinking about what I was like 20years ago as a 16year old faced with the worst thing happening to me (thankfully nothing that bad has happened since). I think you have it spot on about being split in half. It is so hard because everyone handles their grief in their own way.

Genuine question, for how long do you cut someone slack? The reason i ask is because I remember a teacher saying to me "it has only been a year, don't worry" then a year later I got grief from the same teacher for not performing aswell as I should have done.

Here is another angle. MIL in her lifetime has suffered a stillbirth, loss of a husband at 27 and loss of a daughter when she was 19. As a result MIL is a bit insensitive to other people's suffering and thinks that they are making a fuss over nothing.

She got through these tragedies and didn't suffer from depression so therefore anyone else just has to pull themselves together. Oh, and she thinks that PND and other forms of depression is just being self indulgent.

She makes me so cross sometimes!

Thanks Elephants. And I'm so sorry about your Mum. I think your teacher all those years ago was very insensitive!

I don't know how long anyone would need to cut a friend some slack. It just seems to me 2 years after a stillbirth isn't long, especially as the op's friend hasn't yet had another child. Not suggesting a replacement at all, just some other posters said they embarked on a turning point after having a successful pregnancy.

The other factor of course is that grief notwithstanding, we all have a core personality. Would op's friend be the sort of person to be banging on about holidays and designer treats if she hadn't experienced the stillbirth ? Did she always have a bit of a "look at me and what I've got" sort of streak ? What's happened to her won't make that go away. Conversely if she was always very empathetic that in a sense is more revealing. It suggests an even deeper struggle. Op, you should ask yourself that question. Depending on your honest answer to yourself, you can decide how tolerant you want to be of your friend.

But my guess is that either way, she's in emotional agony still, and can't really help herself. Maybe if you want to be her friend still, you can find a way to be a bit more distant but a bit more patient.

If i may, can i give you a little insight into the years following the death of a child?

IME, nearly eight years on from the death of my baby, the second year after the death is the worst. The first year i think, you're in shock. The shock buffers you somewhat from the incredible pain and hurt, and whilst it's still there, the shock of your baby dying is utterly overwhelming. The second year though... the shock starts to wear off.. you realise 'god, that actually happened to me.. it's real and it happened' and you can feel things again. You feel all the little things so acutely and it hurts so much that it's a physical ache. And frankly it's all consuming. It's there as soon as you wake in the morning, and if you're really unlucky, you forget for a few seconds and then you remember and you're right back there, living it all over again - and it's there as you close your eyes at night. It never leaves you, not for a moment, and you have to carry on functioning because it's expected of you - people around you are getting on with their lives, they can move on, but for you it's there all.the.time.

I guess the best thing you could do, as a friend, is just be patient. The other things that are important to you frankly just aren't as important to your friend - the only thing that matters in her world is that her baby died. Her baby. Rightly or wrongly she needs to deal with that in her own way. All you can do, is just be there.

Do you think your friend cares OP? You're coming across as rather self indulgent now.

water' yes, I think your second choice of an AIBU makes more sense -

• if you frame it as 'I don't like this person, our friendship exists for historic reasons (IYSWIM - inertia, friends in common etc). However, her child died 2 years ago and I feel guilty about not liking her and not wanting to be her friend' then I think you would have more useful and sympathetic responses.

If you want to wind the friendship down, taper it off, etc then fine but just be kind. You don't need to get moralistic about it - it's fine not to enjoy someone's company for all sorts of reasons, and I think that's more honest than you judging her for being materialistic and 'boastful' about her lifestyle. You were beginning to sound a bit like you had some moral 'duty' to step in and try to correct her behaviour.

If you find you want to break off the friendship with a lecture to her about what an unpleasant person you think she is, then resist the urge. She's a bereaved mother, she doesn't need a dressing down from you - and in any case, it wouldn't change her. The only 'benefit' would be you having got something off your chest which she may well find hugely wounding and upsetting. It's not worth it.

And really don't make it your concern about what she is like with other people. That's their problem, not yours.

My friend's daughter died just over a week ago.

My daughters are alive.

Wot Dee said.