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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Re A Penalty Charge Received By My Son On Train...

101 replies

arrgghhh · 07/08/2012 20:02

In June, my 12 year old son ran for his train and forgot to tap his Oyster card. Immediately that he got on train he was approached by a ticket inspector. Son reached into blazer pocket whilst explaining he hadn't tapped in as the train was there and if he missed this train, he would be late for school and be given a detention. Son then discovers his Oyster card isn't in his pocket! Inspector says "don't worry, on this occasion it will be a caution...get your Mum to write in to this address" as he gives my son the penalty notice. My son gets off the train at the next stop rather than continuing his journey because he felt scared and humiliated. And yes was late for school! I appealed the ticket because of what the inspector had led my son to believe and if they were to look at his Oyster card history it would become clear that he was not a fare evader and perhaps the inspector could/should have exercised discretion.

The appeal was unsuccessful and here is a quote from one of the letters I received "Whilst we acknowledge that it is not your responsibility as the legal parent/guardian to make payment, we advise you that the amount outstanding £20.00 must be forwarded within 14 days of the date of this letter in order to avoid further debt recovery action being taken which will incur an additional admin fee of £20.00. HOW ARE THEY GOING TO GET THIS FROM A 12 YEAR OLD??

So I bit the bullet and tried to pay online and was unable to..website said no and referred me to payment telephone line. This is quite a busy line and I tried on at least three occasions to get through including last night. Finally this morning I got through only to be told fine had increased to £40 at 12.01am today! I had miscalulated the 14 days. The call centre were unable to take a payment of £20 and I was not prepared to pay £40.

Today a sent a payment of £20 via recorded delivery saying if they deposit the cheque they are accepting that this matter is settled.

AIBU?

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/08/2012 10:42

lucyellen - no, he didn't have the oyster card on him at all.

I don't think it's fair to call ticket collectors 'jobsworths' - they get in trouble if they don't do their jobs. They should be polite and sympathetic but they shouldn't have to bend the rules.

(I would expect there to be a different approach to a person who carried a card explaining they were autistic, you have to make allowances.)

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 08/08/2012 10:50

I travel regularly by public transport in London (several journeys a day doing the school run). There are frequently a few children doing the "I'm waiting for my new Oyster card", "I left it at home and I haven't got any money" speech. I think the problem is that it is impossible for inspectors to tell the difference between the honest mistakes and trying it on so they don't exercise their discretion. I have had to buy a ticket for DS1 before now because he had left his Oystercard in school - such is life.

Toughasoldboots · 08/08/2012 10:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lucyellensmum99 · 08/08/2012 10:53

Oh well in that case, the boy should have been put into a police holding cell until his parents came and bailed him out Hmm Its about using ones common sense and making a judgement call. Actually the inspector sounded perfectly reasonable in his actions, so long as he was polite and friendly to the child but the appeal should have been upheld, especially if the OP could show he usually made payment, im assuming he travels every day? But it is not the place of ticket inspectors to give people a "hard time" if they have not paid for whatever reason.

I am not calling all inspectors jobsworth - far from it, i have only ever encountered politeness. My dad worked for the railways, i like trains i do! But there are jobsworths in every walk of life and fecking nora paints herself as one, as was the coach driver who wouldnt let the student on the bus.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/08/2012 11:00

Lucyellensmum yes it was sad for thdisat student, but it is generally known that if you are travelling on a discount ticket, then you must also carry the proof that you are entitled to that ticket.

What if her mate had bought it for her on their student card?

The coach driver was entirely correct, and shouldn't really have let her travel. If discretion was used every time someone had an excuse/cried no one would ever pay their fare.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/08/2012 11:02

Lucyellensmum on what grounds should the appeal have been upheld? He was travelling without paying a fare. Black and white.

diddl · 08/08/2012 11:03

If the boy had no card & no money-what should be done?

He was allowed to continue his journey & issued a fine.

It´s not the inspectors fault that the boy got off & was late for school-nor that OP didn´t pay the fine in the allotted time!

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/08/2012 11:05

tough, that's awful.

I do think you are being unfair to the coach driver - you did admit he changed when head office confirmed he could let her on. Surely that's the right thing to do? The onus is on the person travelling to check what documents they need and to have them.

The buses round here usually don't require you to carry a student card because they know that the stop right by the university is going to be full of students so they don't bother to check - but they're within their rights to and if I saw someone delaying everyone else's journey to argue to be let off, I would be annoyed and sorry for the driver.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/08/2012 11:06

Sorry, second half of my post was to lucye not tough.

feckingnora · 08/08/2012 11:07

Lucyellensmum99 if you got on to my train without a ticket you would be getting a fine so fast your head would spin! 'you never pay before you get on a train' - unless there is a specific reason for not doing so (eg: not having facilities to pay)not just because you -by your own words- are a weirdo! ? grow up and get over it?
and the guard couldn?t swipe the card because the boy didn?t have it with him! fare dodger much?

ps. complain to your hearts content, the railway is very very tight. :)

seeker · 08/08/2012 11:28

Nora- did you read my post about my dd a bit down thread? Would you mind reading it and saying whether you think she was treated fairly?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/08/2012 11:35

seeker I thought that was really bad! Angry

The station nearest where my parents live is unmanned and has (or had, when I used to live there) big notices saying if you cannot pay at the station because no-one is there, you can get on the train but must tell the ticket inspector.

I know you asked nora and want the 'official' view but I just wanted to say that it sounded really unpleasant of them to me.

Toughasoldboots · 08/08/2012 11:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

feckingnora · 08/08/2012 11:59

seeker if your station is a small unmanned station that has no ticket machines then your daughter was correct in trying to pay on the train and then failing that at the next avalible place. Stations that have no means of payment usually have (ours do anyway) poster stating they must buy a ticket as soon as possible and that penalty fares are not effective on that line. If the station has a means to buy a ticket then she really should have bought a ticket, but being only 12 she must have been scared. I would have called the police and done them for kidnap! You can not restrain someone and that applied 100x to a child! Each case is different, i would have either just sold your dd a ticket and let her go or had there been a means to buy a ticket before i would have expalined that she must be very careful and must always buy before she travels, becasue there are some employees that are mean, and with that let her buy a ticket and go. If i saw her again and she had done the same thing (if facilities were avalible to buy a ticket) she would get a fine.

I used to work with someone who was a total jobsworth, he was a nasty peice of work and used no discrssion and just fined everyone. He delighted in making young girls cry, many times he fined people for things that he wasnt ment too, or filled something wrong on the form. If those people appealed then the fine would be cancelled, unfortunalty most people (exculding OP!) just pay the fine.

Ephiny · 08/08/2012 12:06

I can understand you being annoyed about the fine going up to £40 when you'd tried to get through and couldn't - though to be fair you had 14 days to do it, and it's not their fault you left it until the last minute.

It's reasonable enough that they fined him for travelling without a ticket though. I'm sure it was a genuine mistake, but these things happen and he was in the wrong. Hopefully he'll learn from it, and make sure he has his card next time, and leaves a bit earlier in the morning to be sure of having time to touch in!

theyarebetter · 08/08/2012 12:20

LucyEllensmum Students totally know they need their student card on them at all times to get the cheaper fare!

If you'd paid for her, you'd have been conned, IMO.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/08/2012 12:24

I think that's true theyare. She might have been genuine, but my mate used to get a bus to work every day along a student route and every day, someone would try it on!

If you're a student you get very used to flashing your card for things ... otherwise, how would they know you are one?!

LilyCocoplatt · 08/08/2012 13:48

Lucyellen what exactly is your definiton of an inspector giving someone a hard time that you think is not their place to do, because I would think that giving fare dodgers a talking to and issuing a fine is precisely their job.

mayorquimby · 08/08/2012 14:21

"You are not judge and jury - you are not a policewoman - your job is to ensure the tickets are bought. If not, then issue the penalty notice. "

Exactly. Which is why I'm struggling to see how you disagreed with the bus drivers stance. It was not his place to decide the girl was genuine or that the rules could be circumvented because he felt like it. He is not judge and jury, he has the role of ensuring passengers have the correct tickets. In your case the passenger did not, so by your own logic he was simply fulfilling his role in the process and to go further would be assuming the role of judge and jury, something which you have expressed objection to.

SamG76 · 08/08/2012 15:28

Are penalty fares enforceable against 12 year olds anyway? I'd've thought not, because they are civil and not criminal matters. It's hard to see how a 12 year old can agree a penalty fare (as opposed to the proper fare, which is clearly necessary expenditure and therefore enforceable). I've always kept this argument up my sleeve when travelling with nieces and nephews, but never had to use it.

Lucyellensmum99 · 08/08/2012 17:58

There is a difference between getting on the train with no intention to pay than paying when you see the inspector. I have never not paid, if on the rare occasion i don't see the inspector, i always pay at the other end. Thankfully i have never come across anyone quite so rude as you though nora. I know about the railways thankyou, my father worked for the railways all his life, so know just how "tight" they are Hmm. At no time when i have not had a ticket have i ever been questioned, i just buy the ticket, pass the time of day with the inspector and move on - thats why you carry your little tills with you is it not? If that wasn't "allowed" i am pretty sure that i would have been told by now.

Lucyellensmum99 · 08/08/2012 18:01

The student had already paid for her ticket online, so had already paid her fair for which she had her ticket, she wasn't trying to purchase a ticket without her student card with her. As i pointed out to the driver, non of his coleagues had done their jobs properly and ever asked to see the card so it was not on her list of priorities when she was packing to go home. She had paid the proper price, had paid for the travel card so he, imo, was in the wrong and being a teensy bit petty, but hey, if it makes him feel better about himself.......

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/08/2012 18:03

lucy - so what? It doesn't matter when she purchased the ticket - she should bring the card with her when she travels. Many online systems don't have anywhere to enter a student card number - they rely on you bringing the card when you travel.

It was extremely rude of you to tell the driver his colleagues weren't doing their jobs while arguing this man should stop doing his job in this one case!

LRDtheFeministDragon · 08/08/2012 18:07

Btw, you are correct it's allowed on some lines to buy a ticket on the train - but on others there are penalties for doing so. I think mostly they're between stations that have ticket barriers anyhow, so it's likely you wouldn't mistake one for the other.

Naysa · 08/08/2012 18:07

So if I saw my train was coming, ran to get on then tried to buy a ticket on the train and had forgotten my money would I not be liable for fare dodging?
Your son lied and committed a crime, regardless of whether he meant to.
You bring up his age like it's an excuse but you allow him to get the train on his own...

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