Re A Penalty Charge Received By My Son On Train...

[arrgghhh]

In June, my 12 year old son ran for his train and forgot to tap his Oyster card. Immediately that he got on train he was approached by a ticket inspector. Son reached into blazer pocket whilst explaining he hadn't tapped in as the train was there and if he missed this train, he would be late for school and be given a detention. Son then discovers his Oyster card isn't in his pocket! Inspector says "don't worry, on this occasion it will be a caution...get your Mum to write in to this address" as he gives my son the penalty notice. My son gets off the train at the next stop rather than continuing his journey because he felt scared and humiliated. And yes was late for school! I appealed the ticket because of what the inspector had led my son to believe and if they were to look at his Oyster card history it would become clear that he was not a fare evader and perhaps the inspector could/should have exercised discretion.

The appeal was unsuccessful and here is a quote from one of the letters I received "Whilst we acknowledge that it is not your responsibility as the legal parent/guardian to make payment, we advise you that the amount outstanding £20.00 must be forwarded within 14 days of the date of this letter in order to avoid further debt recovery action being taken which will incur an additional admin fee of £20.00. HOW ARE THEY GOING TO GET THIS FROM A 12 YEAR OLD??

So I bit the bullet and tried to pay online and was unable to..website said no and referred me to payment telephone line. This is quite a busy line and I tried on at least three occasions to get through including last night. Finally this morning I got through only to be told fine had increased to £40 at 12.01am today! I had miscalulated the 14 days. The call centre were unable to take a payment of £20 and I was not prepared to pay £40.

Today a sent a payment of £20 via recorded delivery saying if they deposit the cheque they are accepting that this matter is settled.

AIBU?

the thing about learning to do something, is that people make mistakes while they are learning,

kids arent born ready.

the first time you take them to a place where they have to sit quietly they may not get it, but as you keep taking them they learn,

when you take them on a bus at 2 they might try and run around but they soon learn they have to sit.

this is the same thing, part of the learning process surely?

You're not wrong nailak but there comes an age (and I think 12 is reasonable) where they have to take responsibility.

I'm sure the OP (well I hope) will have gone through the behaviour policy with her child because he has to sign to say he's read it.

It absolutely covers fare dodging.

My eldest DS travelled on a bus without his Oyster and I had to pay a £20 fine for him....I stopped every penny out of his pocket money until I was paid back because I was absolutely fuming with him.

Yes people make mistakes but part of letting them do things on their own is you have to face the consequences.

You let them learn to drive, but you accept that there may be a crash, you let them go out on their own in the knowledge you aren't there to sort it out and things may happen as a result of mistakes being made but if you aren't prepared to deal with consequences then don't let it happen in the first place. It's very much like most teenage things sex, drinking etc.

You have to write this off as a cock up and know he'll know better next time.

I work in the rail industry, and I am glad your son got a penalty fare. I get shouted at and sworn at each and everyday because people cannot take responsibility for themselves. hopefully this incident would have taught your son to be more careful and to always touch in and touch out.

also because the fine ends up as your responsibility then you will hopefully teach your son that fare evading ( he had done it twice now!) is not on and illegal.

where I work we get a lot of children and adults that think it is acceptable not to pay for their journey. not tapping in because you are running for your train is just tough shit, be responsible and get to the station with enough time.

anyone that comes to my station with no money/not touched in will get a hard time from me. the kids so that they understand why they need to pay and to hopefully stop them becoming fare evading adults. and the adults to shame them into growing up and buying a bloody ticket!

The rail fares are extortionately high and I find it disgusting that some people think they don?t have to pay, when others spend a fortune on tickets.

"Of course my preference would have been for the inspector to use discretion and allow my son the opportunity to pay his fare. As I said his Oyster history would show regular top ups and tap ins at the station he got on at. "

But my point is that you son was caught out in a lie.

He told the inspector "I didn´t tap my card because blah blah blah...", when in fact he didn´t even have his card with him-so how is the "Oyster history" even relevant?

Diddl - it's not a lie if he believed it to be true at the time.

No, he didn´t deliberately lie-but that´s not how it would look to the inspector, is it?

YABU unfortunately.

Fines for honest mistakes are massively annoying - I got one when I got diverted for work when already within the London transport system to a station where there is no way to pay along the way, so they normally let you get the necessary extension at the other end - this day a ticket inspector fined everyone, despite the actual station staff saying they would sell extensions as usual.

BUT

You left it a long time before paying so can't make too much of the problems you had. And unfortunately it sounds as though your son wasn't being completely truthful with the ticket inspector - it is a bit of a coincidence that the day he forgot to swipe in was also the day he forgot his oyster card altogether. It sounds much more as though he realised he didn't have it and decided to chance it and is telling you he forgot to swipe in to explain why he got on the train without it.

Obviously you know your son best and will probably have a good idea of whether he is fibbing to you, but the ticket inspector won't, and even if it was a genuine coincidence he probably wouldn't have believed him.

I also can't imagine the ticket inspector actually told him he would get a "caution" as this isn't procedure - I would imagine he wouldn't listen to the explanation, handed him the ticket and said "if your mum wants to appeal it then get her to write in to this address" as per the usual "I'm not listening to any more excuses and can't be bothered to continue this conversation" approach of most ticket inspectors.

Pay up.
Why was he humiliated and scared, the inspector was doing his job and was hardly going out of his way to be mean.

YABU.

It's worth reminding your ds that if it happens again and he remembers to go and explain to the inspector before he gets approached.

I managed to lose dds rail ticket yesterday on the train in London after the inspector on the train had seen it. I had to go and explain to the inspector waiting at the barrier that I was an idiot. He was lovely and said he would let me through no probs but I'd need a ticket for the rest of the day. So I bought a replacement off him which he said I could get a refund on if I found the original. So, discretion can be used.

Does he also never have money for if he forgets his card/can´t find it in time to tap it...

That's a good point that diddl is making. Always make sure they have emergency money to cover the journey, kept in a separate spot, just in case.

So you're didn't pay the original fine amount because you were on holiday?
That won't be a good enough reason, they will want to rest of the fine.

My husband issues fixed penalties all day for littering and dog fouling offenses. He gives fixes penalty notices to kids & adults. He gives them the opportunity to pick up and if they don't he gives them a fine (£40 initially, £75 after 14 days, reminder letter after 21 days and court summons after 28 days).

I would just pay the remaining £20 or you may find yourself in court on behalf of your son as you are his legal guardian.

It's crappy but it's just life, lesson learned.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
He cocked up...he has to be responsible, just as at school, of he forgot his homework, he would probably have a detention.
Don't know why he felt scared and humiliated....he was in the wrong.
Inspectors must see hundreds of kids every daydoing this..they are just doing their job.

YABU.

Your son forgot his Oyster card, and dodged his fare. Even if it was an accident, he should learn from it. You should have paid the fine straight away, and then passed on the charge to your son, which he could work off through chores/allowance/etc.

Refusing to pay, accruing fines, and blaming the train operators is not setting a very good example of taking responsibility for your actions.

It's a shame your DS forgot his Oyster card but it's just one of those things I'm afraid. If they listened to every excuse about why x, y, z chain of events lead to people's Oyster cards being forgotten/not touched in then nobody would ever be fined and there would be no incentive to pay.

The point about being him not being a serial fare-evader is irrelevant really, the people that do it frequently will also be fined frequently, it's not a one-off punishment. And his Oyster statement won't really prove anything, only that he touches in and out sometimes - they don't know what other journeys he might have made and not touched in or out (you know he hasn't done this but they don't!)

It's good to get into a habit of double-checking before he leaves that he has everything he needs for the day, even if he thinks he has it. I think he has learnt his lesson, and if there is a next time he should pay the fine himself and quickly!

I agree that he should have had his card with him, and you should have just paid the £20- it wounds like wn open and shut case to me.

BUT. The revenue collection people- the "enforcers" - on public trasnport can be really, really horrible and aggressive- I've seen lotsnof cases of this. For example, when my dd was 12, she got on a train at our rural, infrequently manned station, travelled 3 stops and then tried to pay her fare at the barrier. She was taken off in full view of everyone on a busy station, into a side room, questioned by two people in uniform who refused to either let her ring home or ring home themselves for confirmation. They checked the address and postcode she gave on the computer, and eventually let her go with a penalty notice. I queried it, and eventually received a one line letter telling me that the penalty had been recinded. Dispite several letters, I did not ever get a comment about the staff's behaviour. My dd refused to travel unacceptable companied on the train for nearly a year! She was frightened, intimidated and publicly humiliated.

I don't understand why you can't pay the fine and still tell him not to worry too much about an honest mistake?

If this were happening a lot, it'd be you who'd need to help him work out another strategy (getting up earlier, double-checking, whatever), wouldn't it? It's not like if he were consistently failing to pay and getting fined you'd shrug and say 'well, his problem', you'd accept it was a problem for the two of you to sort out.

So I don't follow why you can't do the same with the fine, accept it is fair (because he did not pay, and didn't have his card, and those are the rules), but also accept that a 12-year-old isn't an adult and will sometimes make mistakes which you can tell him are not the end of the world?

I agree- meant to say that in my rant. Reassure him that these things happen- it's not a disaster. Pay the fine- tell him that he'll have to contribute if it happens again, but help him to understand that an honest mistake is just that. And everyone makes them - occasionally!

feckingnora This is why I'm constantly worried about my 16 year old DS travelling by train to and from school which he does every day. I have to let him do it as one day he will be independent and will need that life skill

He may look NT but is on the autistic spectrum and would be utterley mortified and scared if he was given a 'hard time' because he forgot his pass. He has a card to show that he is autistic, I expect him to be stopped but with attitudes like yours I have no confidence in staff to be gentle with him.

NCIS : I have experience with autism and if you son showed me a card saying he is autistic I would have extreme sympathy to his cause.
We have two brothers that regularly travel who have some kind of SN and he was very panicky about his lost ticket, so I nicely explained how he had be careful not to loose his ticket and what could happen if he did, so he had to be extra careful! and I let him go on his way. He now smiles and waves as he passes through the station each day.

When I say I am ?hard on? them I am not nasty, I just make sure that they are totally aware on the rules of travel and the consequences of ticketless travel. My approach will differ for each person I am talking to. Firstly it is my job to stop ticketless travel and secondly the revenue collectors sometimes enjoy their job a bit too much and can be rude and aggressive, so I feel my approach, firm but fair is a better alternative (and no £20 fines)

he is a kid, i'd not worry about it. He made a mistake, one that mortified him...he is unlikely to repeat it, as he sounds like a good boy. Dont lose sleep over £20- life is too short.

I hope they consider the matter closed now.

feckingnora If you gave my child a "hard time" because she forgot her ticket, id give you a hard time, in terms of formal complaint and make sure you were brought to task. You are a ticket collector and you deserve respect in doing your job - if my child were rude i would give her a hard time myself and respect that you had done the same. But if you took it upon yourself to berate her then i'd go into lioness parent mode. You are not judge and jury - you are not a policewoman - your job is to ensure the tickets are bought. If not, then issue the penalty notice. Not give a young child a "hard time" and then be proud of it I think you need some training in customer service. Yes there will be those that take the piss and are rude and you are entitled to react to that, but if i child has made a genuine mistake then they should be given the benefit of the doubt.

I remember having to intervene on behalf of a student once because of a jobsworth coach driver. She was going to london, it was her birthday the next day, i knew this because i had sat and listened to her talking to her friends about it. When she tried to get on the bus, despite having her ticket (her cheap student ticket) the driver woudlnt let her on because she didn't have her student travel card. She explained that she made this journey regularly and had never been asked for the card before. So out comes his notes with the small print on. The poor girl was getting really upset - she didn't have enough money on her to make the payment for the full price, but the coach is a one a day thing - she wanted to be wth her family for her birthday!! Her friends didnt have any money, they even offered to run back to her digs to get the card, which would have taken less time than the argument with the driver! The driver was adamant, rules is rules - Poor girl was in tears at this point - so i offered to pay the difference, well imagine my when it was a further £16! So i had one last punt at persuading the driver - he was rude to say the least, rules is rules, there it is madam, in black and white - yes, but she had never been asked for the card before, she left it at home, she couldnt have purchased the ticket without the travel card FFS! He was adamant, until i asked for the number of his head office to check it out, then he changed his tune - "oh well, THIS TIME, but make sure you have it next time........." He was enjoying the power rush over a young girl who wasn't worldly wise enough to fight her corner. Wanker.

Fare dodgers are idiots who need to be fined, but a 12 year old boy on the way to school, who obviously has an oyster card that i would assume would show that he pays regularly, making a bad call and getting on the train?? I never pay before i get on the train, i always wait until the gaurd comes and i pay then, either card or cash, there is never ever a problem, i either pay them or pay at the other end (i get stressed in queues - weirdo). Why could the guard not have just swiped the boys card or told him to do so when he got off the train? Jobsworth? much?

"Why could the guard not have just swiped the boys card or told him to do so when he got off the train?"

Because he didn´t have the card with him.