Or is my mother - paying for the wedding

[Ambivalence]

I know I am about to be flamed here.

Just had a nerve wracking telephone call from my mum. She and my late father were both born in india, and although I am a british born asian, she has very traditional ideas about culture and religion.

I am one of 4 daughters (also have a younger brother), and the first one to be getting married. She has been saving for our weddings since we were born as in indian tradition ( hindu punjabi), the brides parents bear the bulk of the wedding costs.

My fiance is dutch. He has one brother and his brother and my future SIL paid for their own wedding, as is normal in holland, the parents don't contribute anything.

I go to holland with him fairly regularly, to see his family, have known them for years. The parents are divorced, and the father has died ( his new wife got everything, so DF had no inheritance from his Dad).

My mother is now saying that she thinks it is unfair that DF's family are getting away with a "free" wedding, and haven't enquired into our customs or whether anything is expected from them. In most british asian weddings nowadays the couples parents both contribute, and I have seen this with my british asian friends.

She is going to holland in september to meet DF's mum, brother, SIL and their 3 for the first time. She is now saying that she is going to speak to his mum and ask her what she expects to contribute.

I am dreading the whole thing. Actually DF's mum is well off and could afford to help out, but it wouldn't occur to her. They are also under the impression my parents must be minted as they privately educated their kids ( unheard of in holland).

This is just going to be awful. DF just doesn't "get" where my mum is coming from, doesn't understand the cultural importance and obligations for my mum of doing a big wedding, and thinks she is being ridiculous.

Has anyone else negotiated this situation?

To not drip feed, although DF is lovely, and my family all love him, he is not at all financially astute - at 46, he has a grand total of about £2K in savings, no other assets. I was brought up to be a saver, got a mortagge when I was 25 and now have a lot of equity. DF gave up a £40K job in holland to move to be with me and now is earning a pittance ( although he is going for interviews, and I am feeling confident that he will get a £30K job soon). I will always out earn him. So far he is only contributing his half of the bills (£300/ month) and food etc. he says h won't contribute to the mortageg as that is just helping me with my equity - which annoys me as he is happy to live here, rent free ( it is a v nice central london flat!).

i don't have a lot saved up, as all goes in the mortage, service charges, roof repairs etc.

Would it be unreasonable after he gets a new job to make him pay "rent" and use that money as a contribution towards his part of the wedding stuff?

i really don't know what to do, i have tried talkign to him, but he just doesn't seem to want to listen, and I am trying to keep DF and my mum both happy.

Has anyone else been in this situation ?

I think that if you marry this man you are setting yourself up for a lifetime of being "The Sensible One". I suppose there are arguments for each of your apporaches to money but having been TSO throughout my marriage I found it a great liberation to be 'myself' financially once we separated. My XH is like your DF, from a family of fritterers, and still believes that, despite earning a decent wage, he would be better of on benefits . What he doesn't realise that he spend all his money on coffee and bits and bobs.

I remember we once tried to draw up a sensible budget as I was sick of never having anything new for myself as I was always making up the shortfall and during the first month he overspent by £900 .

Needless to say our poles apart approach to finance drove a great wedge between us and he finally decided he'd have more fun on his own.

What I am trying, very longwindedly, to say is that if you marry him these niggles will absolutely not go away and will only get worse with age.

I hope you can navigate all this successfully!

OP I do think you are being naive. Your 25 year old self knew what she would stand for, and this does seem a little as if you are settling.

Of necessity you will have linked finances, how can you not? In the eyes of the law what is yours will also be his, if you were to split after being married then he would walk away with your financial security.

I also disagree that 46 is a peak of earning potential. When people were expecting to retire from 50 onwards then maybe, but these days when we will all be working until 65 and beyond, 46 is a little early to be calling it quits, don't you think?
My DH is 42, and he earns double what he earned at 40. He plans to double increase it by another 50% in the next 2 years.

My cousin and her partner agreed, because he was so bad with money, that all monies would be paid into a joint account that only she had access to. She would then give him cash each day. I realise lots of people will say that this infantilises him but he wanted it (he had a gambling problem) and it has worked for them for 20 years now.

I don't share finances (except household) with my partner but I did insist that he cleared his debts before we bought a place together. Part of our "living together agreement" is an agreement that he will not go overdrawn or leave balances on a credit card and that neither of us take on any personal loans or financial committents without prior discussion.

Perhaps, Ambivalence, you may want to consider coming to a financial agreement with your partner before you marry him? Once you are married what is now yours will also be his. If you want to protect it via pre-nup you need to do so in advance. There is case law precedent on pre-nup in UK now, so a pre-nup drawn up by a knowledgable solicitor should, hopefully, protect your assets should you split. But as well as a pre-nup I'd consider having a written agreement between you both on how you are going to deal with your finances on a day to day basis otherwise the difference in your attitudes towards money is going to create a lot of strife I think.

Wise words from Ali there. As ever.

It sounds like the obvious solution for the wedding issue is that you and he pay for it yourselves, and have the kind of wedding you want and can afford.

If either set of parents want to give you a (financial) gift to mark the occasion then that's up to them, and very generous if they want to do it, but it's not something you (or your mother!) can ask them about, that would be rude and grasping.

I agree it sounds like there are other problems here though. If you are keen to keep finances separate, think carefully about whether marriage is a good idea for you. Do not assume fatherhood will change him - it rarely does IME.

He really does try to understand my culture, he just finds my mum difficult to cope with. he doesn't understand why she wants to sort everything to do with the weding now when it is not until next spring. She just wants it sorted so she can stop worrying about it, which i think is fair enough.

i am not actually that bothered about the wedding - it is just one day. i would dearly live to pay for it ourselves and do it our way, but I'd still want my family involved.

I guess my anxiety is about whether I am up for a lifetime of being the sensible one, and whethr I can trust him to stop being such a spendthrift ( he is trying). I am not worried about him taking me to the cleaner sin the event of a divorce - that was why he wanted a pre-nup, to say he had no claims over the flat.

It's just hard because I know he wishes we were living in holland, and I know he has given up a lot to be with me. I just worry about replaying my parents marriage ( she was the responsible one, he was the "fun" parent), they used to argue a lot about money - because she insisted on private schools for us and he resented it ( they both worked)

Of course it would be easier for him if i moved to holland, and I should be grateful that he has moved here. I am very harsh on him, and controlling when it comes ot the finances.

i don't think I am "settling" by being with him. I know some of my friends think that. I think it is more that my 25 year old self expected him to come around to my way of thinking. I know he never will. w are very differnet personailities, but that is why we complement each other.

i do love him with all my heart, and i will marry him, I just need to sort out these issues with him

I'm sure he will appreciate it! Maybe buy him something Dutch as a little pressie :)

There is no reason why you can't keep your finances separate. That might be harder if you had children but then maybe the responsibility would make him change? Is it a joint desire for a baby? If he really really wants to be a dad then maybe a frank talk about what you/him hope to give to the child would help. If he is happy with state schools and living in a tiny apartment then there might be an issue if you want more for your kids, but maybe it is just that he hasn't connected the money issues with the reality of kids. The compromise that worked in our relationship is that I will go and do a 2nd degree once the baby is a year old (beginning of 2014) that way I will eventually be providing a good wage but it will be in a job I love.

As for a small apartment and kids we live in a 1 bedroom apartment (it does have enough room to make it 2 bedrooms if we need to) we could move another 20 mins outside Stockholm to a house if we feel we need to but for the fist couple of years I think it will work for us. It took us 2 years to conceive and in that time my opinions on things changed, now I just think the opportunity to have a family is amazing and so long as you have a home (however basic) food and lots of love that is all you need. My advice is not to get too cought up in the things you think you need before having kids, if he is loving and kind and will make a good dad then go for it! The other stuff will fall into place :)

The thing is, OP, once you are married you are a financial unit. There is no 'my pension', unless you are thinking of spending your retirement alone. You also talk of him paying 'rent'. Again, a complete separation, not an 'our'. This has come up on the boards a few times recently.

Personally, I would not want to live with my spouse in a house that he owned and I had no stake in. I would foresee that as creating problems for me should we ever split up. I can kind of see where he is coming from. But in the UK, once you're on the ladder you kind of need to stay on it or it can cost you a bomb further down the line should you need to buy again.

Contributions to the family financial unit need not be all financial. Sometimes the partner contributing least financially contributes the most, e.g. the stay-at-home-parent caring for the children and facilitating the working-outside-home-parent's long hours. Maybe you need to consider partnership in more than purely the financial side of things.

The attitude to money is far more concerning than the amounts you both have. Have you discussed it? Can he see where you are coming from? I could deal with being the main breadwinner but I could not deal with being the "fun killer" or the one whose duty it is to bail him out of his financial fecklessness. I would resent him for the first and I would grow to despise him for the latter.

'I just need to sort out these issues with him'

The problem is though, that he clearly doesn't see it as an 'issue' that needs resolving. He is happy with the current situation, you are not, therefore he has all the power.

You are 11 years younger than him, you will in all likelihood have many years of life beyond him. He may not even have much of a retirement in the traditional sense, because you will still be working when he is 76.

There is no reason for him to motivate himself, none at all.

I'd like to be a bit more optimistic about this, I really would, as you are putting lots of thought into how to minimise the problems (keeping finances separate and so on). But I just can't see this working well. Just by being married, living together, having joint expenses (groceries, childcare, the little things like a bottle of milk if you need to dash around the corner) are unavoidable. After a few years of this, he's going to be all chilled, using words like "tight" and "overreacting" about you and telling you to calm down. You on the other hand, will be anxious about your future and will worry every time he pulls out his wallet to spend an unnecessary amount on another knick-knack. He'll be all happy and fun looking and you'll be wound up and cross looking, so you'll find family and friends will naturally gravitate to him and you'll be the little grey cloud following him about.

The normal Mumsnet money management plan (one joint account, and an account each for discretionary spending) is not going to work with you. Saving is a joint expense- it would come out of the joint funds first and be invested or whatever you do with this amount. He's hasn't even shown willingness to set up the system, and I'll bet that unless you do something to put the savings out of his reach, he'd just think of it as money there to spend on a holiday or something like that and he will spend it- as joint funds, you wouldn't be able to stop him.

What is currently papering over the cracks is the fact that YOU are earning decent money. Think about what would happen if you go on ML or lose your job and he is the earner. I'm betting he will do the "It's my money" thing and spend it all, not putting any aside. How will that make you feel? And when you retire, your pension will have to cover two people as he won't have anything. This means that throughout your working life, you will be doing without twice as much in order to save for you both while he has a lovely time up to the limit of his income.

Sorry this has been so long, I am worried you are in for a really stressful time here. Please think about "Mr Right". You don't need a high flyer, you need someone who is on your team with respect to family finances and security. Another grown-up.

I really don't mind being the main breadwinner, I can't see myself as a SAHM. He is much more nurturing and patient than me, and he does want children, and i willing to work part time to spend more time with them. he is very willing to facilitate me working outside the home.

My family see him as a very nurturing and caring person, and they think he is the kind of person I need to be with, as he will support me working outside the home. he does contribute a lot in "other" ways. i am absolutely prepared to have a baby in a one bedroom flat, would like to move eventually and have a 2nd one though, which is why i am keen we both start sving now, to make that a realistic option within the next few years.

I think the real problem is that he is not used to saving, as he has never had to do it, i have tried to explain but it i hard to get him to focus on something so far in the future.

I have to pop out for an hour now (obv on leave today!)

The breadwinning is a red herring. It's not the money coming in that is the issue. It's the money going out.

I would not want my Mother to pay for my wedding in these circumstances. I actually feel a bit sorry for your DF, I think he will never be considered as your equal in the relationship and that is very sad.

'My family see him as a very nurturing and caring person, and they think he is the kind of person I need to be with, as he will support me working outside the home.'

OP is this more about your family than you? Reading between the lines, is there some pressure on you to get married and have a family?

He left a 40k a job to be with you. You said when he can he does contribute. Sounds to me like you have issues with money, not him.

Your mother is being unreasonable. Your/her culture may be to pay for weddings, that's fine. There should be no onus on your dp's family to contribute if they don't wish to.

If your mum want to stick to her culture then she must let them stick to theirs. She needs to learn tolerance and manners.

It's not the "contributing" that is the problem. I don't think you have any problems with him earning less than you or even nothing, do you Ambivalence? It's that fact that he doesn't provide for the future, or even think of it as something about which he needs to think. He's a short term thinker, you're a long term thinker.

The problem is that in a relationship you are the one disadvantaged by this. You are Hans Christian Andersen's ant, providing for the winter, he is the grasshopper, who puts nothing aside. The trouble is, one day, you will both be old. He may be happy living on the state pension plus half of whatever you have managed to rescue from his spendthrift ways after a life of nagging and saying No and trying to change him. Will you?

yes, lisanthus, you are right, I don't mind him earning less than me, if he wanted to be a SAHP for a few years, that would be fine with me too. It is not the money coming in that isw the problem, it is the money going out. I am a long term thiner and he only thinks short term.

The not wanting a lifetime of saying no and trying to change him is why I want to keep our finances seperate, so what he spends is his affair. he is very genrous with oney when he does have - eg he has earmarked £1,500 of his £2k savings to buy me an engagement ring tomorrow, it is just that he has never planned for the future at all.

i do have issues with money, I don't want lots of money, I just want financial stability - hence my rather dull careeer choice. i alos know what it is like to be made redundant and have the fear of no income coming in ( luckily i got a new job before the notice period of my old one).

I have always been a saver, worried about the future, DF's family have never been poor, growing up mine were and hence my keeness to be financially secure.

there is some pressure on me to marry and have a family, yes, my family like my DF, were gutted when i split up with him when I was 25, and overjoyed we are back together. Also my other sisters are all single, so they and my mum are looking forward to a baby in the family, I am not doing it to please them though. I deeply love my DF. I just know he won't change and so have to be more adaptable in my thinking.

I don't think my mum can expect any financial contribution from DF's family for the wedding. i do think DF needs to contribute what he can afford to our home though, or if he is unwilling to, once he is financially on his feet I need to insist he start saving for a deposit for a joint home - he has said he is willing to do this, and is actively looking for a better paid job.

i just don't want to be the old nag lianthus describes

I'm sorry but I am going to be another one who says don't marry him. You have already split up once over money, and nothing has changed since. You are going to end up feeling resentful at being forced to be a nag about his spending. The only way you will manage to save will be if you end up policing all the money in the relationship and putting it out of his reach. He will not understand why this is important and you will end up having massive rows over him wanting to spend savings - he's already going to blow most of the little he has saved on a ring FFS! It will wear you down. It will be exhausting.

Think about what it would be like to have a relationship with someone who was on the same page as you re money. Wouldn't having common goals and attitudes to money make you happier and less stressed out in the long term?

Well, in my book, wanting financial stability and saving to achieve it makes you sensible, not someone with "issues". I think most people who have experienced poverty would feel that way. It's easy to be romantic and bohemian about money when you've always had it and don't really know what it means to have to do without.

You are under a lot of pressure, aren't you. Oh dear. Well do be very, very sure that you are marrying him NOT because you feel you are running out of time, or you have given up on finding anyone who will pull together with you financially, or because your family likes him and is putting pressure on you to "just get married!" or because he's really keen on marrying you or whatever, but because you really, genuinely want to marry HIM.

And get proper legal advice on any pre-nup you sign; a different lawyer than the person looking at it for your OH. A good lawyer who you feel is on your wavelength will be worth spending a bit more on.

Good luck! You seem like a lovely, sensible person. I hope it all works out really well for you.

Thanks Lisianthus, you seem to really "get" where I am coming from. It is exactly that, DF has never known poverty - his parents and grandparents were well off, ,my parents always saved, - as for the pre-nup, I am planning to ask the mumsnetter Xenia for an opinion ( i know of her through work, as a lawyer also, and think she can give me some good recs!)

Just thought of something else - even if you put savings where he can't access them, there will be nothing to stop him taking on debt without your knowledge, which you may end up having to clear with the savings you have built up.

You do not have "issues with money." I have the same attitude to money that you do and it is perfectly normal and sensible. But you do have incompatible attitudes to money in your relationship.

I hope you don't feel attacked by people saying "don't marry him." It's just that having arguments about money is an absolute killer for relationships. I can see that you don't want to play out the "fun parent", "nagging parent" dynamic in your parents' marriage, but you are at very real risk of doing so. How would you feel in 20, 30 years time if your DF's spending habits meant that you couldn't support your children as you would want to, or if they inherited his attitude to money and frittered away any help you gave them? I think you'd end up feeling very resentful and angry - I know I would.

Asking Xenia is a good idea. She will deffo know someone competent.

I have to pop off now, pm me if you need to chat though.