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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To not pay the nursery

142 replies

HowamIgoingtogetoutofthis · 02/08/2012 19:58

Forgive the brevity, I typed a monster post so as not to drip feed, but I lost it.

I have left a violent relationship. Children at risk of abduction (international dimension, court orders protecting children now in place) by their father. He was arrested for assaulting me. When on remand my family and friends moved me out hundreds of miles away.

I emailed the nursery explained the situation (in some detail) explaining the children were not safe at the nursery if their father was released and his behaviour may present a security issue with regards other children.

The manager sent me an email saying he would speak to the owner, was sorry to hear what had gone on and would forward the bys portfolios on in confidence when necessary. Today the owner has sent me an invoice for the entire notice period (£1400). I had expected to lose the deposit, but I have literally just run away with my children to save them. I don't have that sort of money. AIBU not to pay? They can't sue me, I have no assets.

OP posts:

HybridTheory · 02/08/2012 22:25

www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft656.pdf

Page 50 "Kids of W......." may be of interest under the Unfair Contract Terms - revised to 2 months here but not unreasonable.

NettleTea · 02/08/2012 22:33

so where is the husbands liability in all this? I am aware of the OPs back story, and everyone was telling her to get out asap. Now she has they are blaming her for the inevitable fall out of 'getting herself and her children out asap'
I agree that its not great. That leaving does put landlords/companies/etc in a difficult position for, most probably, a very short while. But for gods sake - at the end of the day these companies have been happy to make profit off people (or they would have gone to the wall prior to this) and their actual losses in respect of this one person are probably going to be minimal at the end of the day - nurseries and flats in London get snapped up before you take a breath - but where is the HUMANITY in all this??? You all seem to forget what this woman has been through, what she has managed to escape from - she has had to be moved hundreds of miles away from her home, her friends, her job, her life - do you think thats a choice she just made willy nilly, laughing as she went for the few quid she might have got away with.

The remark about the nursery not choosing her partner is particularly low - do you suppose he was a violent abuser when she fell in love with him, had his children???? FFS we are talking peoples lives and safety here, and its all money money money.

What if she had been re-housed by refuge? would they be telling her that she needs to give notice on her house and pay it all up front??

What if he had abducted the kids? Should she stille supposed to pay for the nursery then? And what if he had killed her??? would they be chasing her next of kin for unpaid bills, or would a pound of dead flesh be OK???

They've filled her places. They've taken her deposit, which should more than cover any incoming admin fees. They've taken new deposits of new children. If they have no compassion in this then they are just greedy bastards who place money above the safety of those they are supposed to have been showing care for.

PenisVanLesbian · 02/08/2012 22:41

I wouldn't pay it. It's extortianate and they will be massively profiting at your expense. Screw em, I say.

WhereYouLeftIt · 02/08/2012 22:42

HybridTheory, I looked at the bulletin you linked to (thanks) and I'm reading it a little differently from you I think.

Original contract term 1(e): allowed the supplier to retain the deposit, in addition to charging three months' fees in lieu of notice, where consumers failed to give three months' notice for leaving the nursery.
Revised to state the deposit will be returned on cancellation of the nursery place or allocated against outstanding fees or costs.

Original contract term 1(e): potentially unfairly failed to acknowledge the supplier's duty to mitigate its loss where consumers cancelled a nursery place without giving three months' notice.
Revised to provide that consumers who fail to provide 2 months' notice before cancellation will not have to pay for sessions if a replacement booking is taken. (my boldings)

Surely this means, since the nursery has a replacement booking (the child from the waiting list known to the OP), then the OP will not have to pay for the sessions as yet untaken, i.e. the three months notice's worth?

HybridTheory · 02/08/2012 22:46

Nettle - The OPs husband obviously has liability to pay for his children however the issue with the nursery falls to whoever signed the contract being liable

No one is blaming OP for getting out (good for her & kids in my opinion) just pointing out that that doesn't give you fee reign to ignore your obligations.

I'm not saying it's right - I'm saying it's legal and maybe people should look a lot closer at what they are signing up to sometimes because I know from experience(and I am talking companies here not just individuals) that they don't and sometimes they get burned.

By the way all the circumstances you state are awful but are not the landlord/service providers fault and therefore yes (goodwill aside) they should pay.

HybridTheory · 02/08/2012 22:59

Where - no you are correct but the OP would need to be sure that her exact sessions were covered or she could be liable for costs dependent on what is in her contract terms. This however was just a 'plucked from the air' example not some kind of precedent - the real test would be whatever is in the OPs contract terms and how a judge would interpret that in court. OP could cite this case in any correspondence though if the terms are similar and it may add some weight.

BertieBotts · 02/08/2012 23:12

They're not losing anything at all.

Let them take you to court. I bet they won't bother.

Sorry to hear about your situation.

WhereYouLeftIt · 02/08/2012 23:15

Thanks HybridTheory. I'm thinking if the nursery has a waiting list, then her exact sessions are bound to be filled, purely because any session that becomes available will be taken by someone. And since the nursery has a duty to mitigate its loss, they cannot choose to leave her sessions open and therefore keep her liable.

HowamIgoingtogetoutofthis, if it were me, I would e-mail the nursery with all this and keep on until they agree to waive the £1,400. It would seem that they cannot be due this amount, as they have taken replacement bookings and their loss due to the non-giving of notice has been mitigated. I'd maybe even throw in that they could take me to court but it is liable to go against them because they have suffered no loss.

I would definitely NOT just walk away from it thinking they couldn't find me. Now is not the time to get a CCJ against you and your access to credit made difficult.

Socknickingpixie · 02/08/2012 23:21

hybrid

sorry to be blunt but there is a world of difference between contract law and debt recovery enforcement, if you work in debt advice then sorry but your not very good at it.

i know for sure that if i was op's suituation,i would be more than happy to test it having done so several times even with priority debts and its unlikly that it wouldnt work,either by paying nothing other than the lost deposit or a significantly reduced figure the deposit knocked off the ammount outstanding and anything else paid off at approx £3.80 a week and no costs awarded against op. and you dont even need to be a debt advisor to be able to do it.

WhereYouLeftIt · 02/08/2012 23:22

Ooh, just done a google for that nursery's T&C, which are now :

Notice Period
22. You must give us 2 MONTHS? NOTICE IN WRITING if you wish to end your childcare arrangements with kidsunlimited.
23. If you do not give us the required notice of any change or withdrawal then you will be required to pay in full for each session for which notice has not been given and which we are not able otherwise to fill. (my bolding)
24. Please do not assume that a reduction in sessions is possible. It is subject to matching the sessions you propose to vacate with other users in the nursery or users on our waiting list.

Honestly, I think challenging the £1,400 is looking hopeful.

StunningCunt · 02/08/2012 23:22

I would just forget about the nursery. They can't make you pay.

StunningCunt · 02/08/2012 23:23

Don't challenge it, just ignore it until they sue you. If and when they sue you, then you can think about paying. Ignore all correspondence.

ElephantsCanRemember · 02/08/2012 23:28

Glad you got out

I wouldn't pay either. I know that sounds shit, but the nursery have filled the spaces. You have done so well to get away from your ExP, don't let this set you back.

I think this thread is a timely reminder that when we see threads on Relationships, especially about violent relationships, and we (generally) all say just leave, just go it isn't that simple. This shows that it doesn't end there. Women fleeing from violent relationships need help before, during and espeically after they have left.

OP Good luck and you have done the right thing.

WhereYouLeftIt · 02/08/2012 23:30

I disagree, StunningCunt. Ignoring it could mean the nursery taking it to court and it being going against her in her absence. The worst think to do with people pursuing you for money is to ignore it, because it absolutely does not go away. The last thing she needs is debt collectors pursuing her, she has enough on her plate. Far better to talk to the nursery and make them see reason.

McHappyPants2012 · 02/08/2012 23:35

OP i would contact women aid or a charity involved in abusive relationships

tethersphotofinish · 02/08/2012 23:36

Why is the father not liable for the fees?

tethersphotofinish · 02/08/2012 23:37

Do any of you have a SW?

MildewMayhew · 02/08/2012 23:37

Hi OP.

So sorry you're having a rough time at the moment.

Firstly, I wanted to say well done on leaving your ex. It's a big step. I hope you're looking after yourself, and making use of any help available.

With regards to the nursery's demand for fees, I'd suggest emailing them the relevant part highlighted by Whereyouleftit at 23:22. I think YWNBU to with-hold payment. I think they're BU in expecting £1,400 from someone who's just become a single parent and had to move to the other side of the country to protect their children.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 02/08/2012 23:38

Tethers, because he didn't sign the contract with the nursery.

ElephantsCanRemember · 02/08/2012 23:39

Tethers I agree, he caused this, it would be great if there was a way to make him liable for them regardless of who signed the contract.

WhereYouLeftIt · 02/08/2012 23:40

tethersphotofinish, he would be liable if he were party to the contract, i.e. had signed it. But it's pretty unlikely I would guess. For example it was only my signature on the contract with our childminder, because I was the one who made the arrangements, DH wasn't on the contract except as the second emergency contact.

HybridTheory · 02/08/2012 23:41

Sockin - no I work in Conratct Law therefore I write contacts as my job (big ones too!)- debt advice has nothing to do with it. The Law is the law and whilst there is often a lot of wriggle room you need to know how to apprach it

Any idiot can ring their ceditor and ask for them to reconsider / open negotitation - err think I already suggested that.

MildewMayhew · 02/08/2012 23:42

Which is a bit shitty, really.

Most of the time, it's women left to make childcare arrangements. Thus, they're left with all the responsibility when things go wrong, and men get off scott free

Housespouse · 02/08/2012 23:42

YANBU The nursery will suffer no loss if they can fill the places immediately. If you write again explaining that you had no choice but to pull the DC out due to unforeseen circumstances (more akin to frustration of contract than a breach) and point out that the nursery can fill the places immediately and so are not actually suffering any loss, then they should agree that it is therefore not fair to ask you to pay £1400, regardless of legalities (which are in any case dodgy given laws about unfair contract terms and fixed penalty clauses for breach of contract).

Would they have actually LET your DC attend if you had tried to send them for the next three months in the knowledge that your ex might be a danger to them and their staff? I doubt they would..

If the nursery managers still insist on the full notice money, then call their bluff and say you want the places left open and available for the DC for the next 3 months whilst you are paying as you may be sending them intermittently.

I hope this is all a misunderstanding.

Socknickingpixie · 02/08/2012 23:43

dont ignore even tho they are unlikly to actually take you to court they could try. challenge it and see what happens and keep doing so,if they attempt to take you to court despute it.
yes they have to find you first and you dont need to tell them how,and i would surgest you dont. if it did get that far then as long as you have behaved responsably (challengeing via email,pointing out policys ect) then it will be easyer to make it go away.head burying is never good.

if the above named nursery is actually your old one then enforcing it is against their own t&c's so fuck them you dont owe it.

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