..to say that if you break into someones home

[WildWorld2004]

You should be ready to be attacked.

Have just read a news story about a guy who broke into a house & got attacked by the homeowner.

Now if someone broke into my home i would do whatever i could to protect myself, my child & my home. Wouldnt everyone else??

Whose fault is it if the burglar gets injured?

It's all dependent on intent, I spoke to the police about this after I had an attempted break in. If you keep a baseball bat next to your bed just in case you get burgled then you have an item which would not normally be found there purely with the intention of injuring an intruder. If, however, you wake to find someone standing over you and wallop them with your bedside lamp, then you're more likely to get away with it, as you grabbed whatever was to hand.

Likewise if you happened to be a gun licence holder cleaning your gun and someone comes at you with a knife; you already had the gun in your hand for a legitimate reason and you would be using it to defend yourself. But if it was where it should be, in a locked gun safe, then you would have to make the decision to unlock the safe, take the gun out and shoot the intruder, then that's classed as intending to cause harm or take a life.

It also depends on whether you are defending your property, or defending yourself. If you stab someone in the back, as they are climbing out through your living room window with your purse then that is not acceptable as they weren't threatening to cause you physical harm. But if they also have a weapon and are coming at you in the kitchen (where it would be "normal" to have a knife) then it is reasonable to grab a handy carving knife and defend yourself. But only using whatever force is necessary to stop them killing you. Once they back off and run away, it's no longer reasonable to injure them.

I think there's a fine line between reasonable and unreasonable force of someone broke into your home. I'd want to disable them and if that meant battering them repeatedly I'd do it.

What I'm more disgusted in is that the law is changing and soon, if someone breaks into my house and my dog attacks, I could be prosecuted for having a 'dangerous dog' and my darling beautiful Boxer would be put down. Bastards.

perfectstorm, i understand your point about fred barras being someone's son and that he should not have been killed for being a burglar. at 17 he was already a career criminal, in the ten years since his death, he would have raided homes and made other people's lives a misery. apparently his mother was going to sue martin for 'loss of earnings'. he deserves some sympathy but he was a growing menace to the local community.

He knew the risks he was bloody taking by breaking into someone's home and taking their stuff. No sympathy. He didn't have sympathy for those he robbed.

If you don't want you get hurt don't break into people's homes and terrify them. People are likely to react very defensively on the spur of the moment when they are scared.
I think if the intruder is running away though and there is no need for self defense then it's obviously different than if they are still on your property and being threatening.

This is why I keep a very large maglite torch by the side of my bed. It is a reasonable thing to keep a torch on my bedside table (maglites are used by security guards as they are very heavy and long handled).

Mind you, to get to me and my dd the fool would have to make it past my dh and dbigdog.

Having been burgled, I can quite honestly say that I'd cheerfully wring the neck of the bastards who broke in, trashed my home and took what they wanted. The emotional distress, financial loss and long lasting pyschological damage they cause is immeasurable.

It was over three years ago since I was burgled and I still sleep uneasily if DH is away.

I've actually questioned whether I should leave bedroom doors closed (which you should do in case of fire) which means burglar could end up entering any bedroom upstairs or whether should leave spare open to deter them from opening bedrooms etc...

Also bring upstairs anything I don't want to lose ie. jewellery that has sentimental value but leave partners wallet downstairs in hope they nick a bit of cash and go?

Funny how you think once somebody has been in your home.

Well I can say for sure that Fred Barras hasn't committed any more burglaries since he picked the wrong house to have a go at. He hasn't ransacked anyone else?s possessions, nor has he been a pestilence for society to have to deal with.

I saw this on Tony Martin's wiki page...

Fred Barras, the dead youth, had accumulated a lengthy criminal record, having been arrested 29 times by the time of his death at the age of 16, and had been sentenced to two months in a young offenders' institution for assaulting a policeman, theft and being drunk and disorderly. On the night he was killed, the teenager had just been released on bail after being accused of stealing garden furniture. Barras' grandmother, Mary Dolan, stated: "It's not fair that the farmer has got all the money and he is the one that took Fred away."

So it was hardly the next Mozart that Martin whacked was it? Had he lived, in what way would he have expanded the sum of humanities understanding? What great scientific discoveries would we have expected from him? What unwritten novels would he leave behind? The answer is none whatsoever ? he?s just one less oxygen thief for us to waste our scant resources on.

As for the quote from Barras' grandmother, I read this sort of thing, with its harpy sense of entitlement and chippy expectation of a free lunch, and I despair.

MrJudgey, I can think of another group of people in history who had the same attitude as you. Shame on you.

Scurry - Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you comparing this to the Nazis

I read no racism in what MrJudgey said. He was talking about the loss of a criminal, not an ethnic group!

It's the comparison to getting rid of people who are less useful I find distasteful.

So if you're not a very nice person, you deserve to be shot in the back while you're running away? Nice.

If I recall correctly Tony Martin had been persecuted in his own home for a long time. In my mind he sounds like a man driven beyond the end of his tether by prolonged intimidation. Of course you shouldn't shoot people in the back BUT Tony Martin had been chasing Fred Barras inside the house, how difficult realistically would it have been to stop in the heat of the moment?

"Now if someone broke into my home i would do whatever i could to protect myself, my child & my home. Wouldnt everyone else?? "

Probably not. I thought exactly the same until it actually happened to me, in fact I just froze and was too terrified to even move. I still feel ashamed about this years later, though rationally it was probably for the best, as I likely would have been hurt worse than I was if I'd tried to fight.

I don't have any problem with homeowners defending themselves appropriately. But in these discussions people always start making grand claims about what they would do, but until you're actually in the position of being in fear for your life you don't really know. You may also be over-estimating your ability to fight off armed intruders who have the benefit of surprise on their side, plus experience of doing this sort of thing before.

Scurry - I see what you mean. Personally, don't think we should get rid of people who are less useful. More along the lines of don't care what happens to intruders on other peoples property.

In someones pad illegally you must expect all you get

The law has eased up on prosecuting household. But you must not shoot a burglar in the back

@Scurryfunge

What a totally ridiculous comparison.

Little sympathy for the death or a naredowell and societal menace whilst he carried out his miserable acts does not in no way compare to the systematic extermination of a race.

I suggest to apologise for the implication, and watch your ankle getting down off that high horse.

Eh?

Wow, a scumbag, with plenty of previous, gets himself shot by a bloke who's been pushed to the limit / a bit of a nutter* whilst in the middle of commiting a crime. I say that it's no great loss for society and get branded a nazi for it.

Get real!

* Delete as appropriate.

I was burgled 6 years ago, whilst we was all asleep. I lived in a ground floor flat at the time. I woke up feeling cold, and decided to pop the loo. When I first saw the front door wide open with the key in it, I just froze. After what felt like ages, I shouted for my other half and we went through to the livingroom. They had opened all the windows wide and the balcony door, and had trashed the place. I remember the fear I felt. Especially when one of them jumped over the balcony, seen us and then quickly jumped back over and ran. Think he was coming back for more stuff.

Called the police, forensics came, we had been too in shock to notice but they had left, what they reckoned to keep us quiet, threatening messages by ripping the head off a teddy and stabbing it with one of our knives which means they had been in the kitchen and walked past my sons room. By that point I was hysterical thinking of all the things that could of happened had my son woke up to use the toilet.

I didn't sleep for weeks. And when I did, it was when my DP was awake with a cricket bat at the ready so I felt safer. Even when we was notified that they had been caught and charged, I couldn't relax. It is the worst feeling ever and 6 years on, I still toss and turn most of the night and jumping at every single noise. But even so, I very very much doubt I could kill. If I really had to for our safety then I would, but for example, I wouldn't repeatedly shoot or stab. My plan has always been to get them on the ground injured and run. I am not a murderer and couldn't live with myself. They are scum, but it doesn't give anyone the right to take away their life because they have took some possessions.