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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to say that if you break into someones home

122 replies

WildWorld2004 · 26/07/2012 00:21

You should be ready to be attacked.

Have just read a news story about a guy who broke into a house & got attacked by the homeowner.

Now if someone broke into my home i would do whatever i could to protect myself, my child & my home. Wouldnt everyone else??

Whose fault is it if the burglar gets injured?

OP posts:
scurryfunge · 26/07/2012 01:28

I would do whatever the law allows me to do. I agree that burglars are the lowest of the low but cannot justify killing anyone who is not a threat to me.
They are scum bags but I am civilised.

MrJudgeyPants · 26/07/2012 01:30

GetOrfMoiiLand If you knew that your actions would trigger mob retribution and vigilante behaviour perhaps you'd think twice about crossing the line in the first place?

Birdsgottafly · 26/07/2012 01:30

If the OP is talking about the burgler who was blinded, i think that there is more gone on than reported, tbh.

Very few burglers attack, they would rather run away and we need the law to protect the victim from their own actions.

I had a friend who had to punch a man who was breaking into his house, with a knife, the man had MH problems. The offender ended up in intensive care, through head injuries. He was a local man and my friends children had to carry on going to school with the DN's of this man, not knowing whether he would live.

It turned out ok, but it has stayed with the children throughout growing up.
People don't realise the far reaching effects and not just the revenge attacks.

GlassofRose · 26/07/2012 01:31

How do you know what threat a stranger poses when they unlawfully enter your home?

You wouldn't have time to think about it, they are not going to stand there for a bit whilst you make your decision. It would be a split decision of fight or flight.

scurryfunge · 26/07/2012 01:32

Glassy, if you truly believe that you life is in danger, then you are justified in using whatever force is necessary. It's overkill that is the problem and what makes it unlawful.

GetOrfMoiiLand · 26/07/2012 01:33

Perhaps. Or perhaps you would take the view that you ought to go in to rob a house with accomplices and be more heavily armed.

The law isn't going to change is it - it isn't going to revert to some kind of wild west outlaw mentality.

I am not on the burglar's side - christ no, they are scum - but you can't go round maiming and killing people in order to protect your property.

perfectstorm · 26/07/2012 01:33

Tony Martin knew he was running away, because he left the house and chased him around two corners, shooting all the time. The 17 year old he killed wasn't in the property any more.

I don't think murder was fair, because of the provocation. Manslaughter? Yes.

I also seem to recall that Martin was a member of far right organisations and had had his gun license revoked, too. Maybe that's misremembering; it was a decade ago now. But there was suspicion that he'd intended to kill if anyone burgled him, which was what made it murder.

If he'd shot them in the house, he'd have been covered by the law. In the back, outside the house, when they were trying to escape? No. We don't have the death penalty here for burglary.

GetOrfMoiiLand · 26/07/2012 01:34

I would say it would be a split decision of fight or flight, that is right. God only knows what I would do as I am lucky to never have had such a decision to make. I can imagine though that I would just run like hell.

perfectstorm · 26/07/2012 01:34

Sorry, pronoun soup in the first sentence.

GlassofRose · 26/07/2012 01:34

Scurry, Tony truly believed his was and he thought he was justified.

It is simply not true that you are allowed to defend yourself if you think your life is in danger. You have to do what you believe you need to do and hope that a jury will agree with you.

MrJudgeyPants · 26/07/2012 01:35

Why should the state have a monopoly on being allowed to use force legally anyway?

If anyone wants to break into my house I say good luck. There's a cricket bat and a whole can of whoopass waiting for you!

I'm a big chap and am not used to hitting people with cricket bats - I apologise in advance if I don't know my own strength and take your head clean off.

scurryfunge · 26/07/2012 01:38

Glasso, see perfect storm's post. Tony Martin acted unlawfully. The scummy burglar was not a threat at the time he was shot. The court decided this as fact.

perfectstorm · 26/07/2012 01:38

"Scurry, Tony truly believed his was and he thought he was justified."

Um, no. The kid in question had LEFT the house and was RUNNING AWAY. Martin ran after him, shooting him, because he wanted to kill him. Two corners turned outside the house, he succeeded.

What part of that do you think is okay?

If he'd shot him in the house, and claimed terror, he'd not have been done for murder at all. And if you use a cricket bat on an intruder and claim fear-driven self defence no jury in the land would convict you, that I can see.

msrantsalot · 26/07/2012 01:39

well as none of us has guns we are not likely to be able to shoot an intruder anyway, but still id let the dog go

scurryfunge · 26/07/2012 01:40

I'm not used to hitting people with cricket bats either ( just batons ) and there would be great satisfaction at taking out a burglar but the point is you have to be justified within the law.

GlassofRose · 26/07/2012 01:42

Personally I don't have a problem with what Tony did. I think if you enter somebodies house you have no right to grumble about what happens.

I remember the event as Tony shooting from the stairs not chasing anybody around corners, but then again it was a very long while ago. No matter what anyone says, I don't consider what Tony did wrong even if it was legally.

The court decides what they consider lawful, it could go either way and you really don't have time to think what a courtroom is going to say when it's 3am and some stranger decides to enter your house.

GlassofRose · 26/07/2012 01:45

perfectstorm

Urrrm yes "Tony thought he was justified"

I have no problem with Tony shooting him, none at all. The intruders had been in his house several times... what happened was their fault. If you don't want the worst to happen, do not make people feel threatened by breaking into their homes.

GlassofRose · 26/07/2012 01:46

I think your wrong in saying no jury in the land would convict you for murdering an intruder inside your home. There will always be people that think human life is too valuable and that kind of force or defence is going too far. You take a risk entering somebodies home and you take a risk defending yourself from intruders.

scurryfunge · 26/07/2012 01:46

But do you not see that the law is there for a reason?
If we all descend into a free for all vigilante way of life, then we are no better?

msrantsalot · 26/07/2012 01:50

I think maybe the point is that when you have a burglar running though your home you dont stop to consult the precedence you just act. you can still feel threatened even if someone is running away. i doubt the tony guy thought anything else but self preservation, even if it was proved to be unlawful. but the thing is the burglar still got it even if afterwards tony took the fall. DO not BURGLE! OR ELSE!!

perfectstorm · 26/07/2012 01:50

Tony Martin sounds a lovely man.

"A committal hearing heard that he believed "Hitler was right" in his policies towards Gypsies. His views would have pleased his uncle by marriage, Andrew Fountaine, a founder of the National Front.

Martin was a regular visitor to Fountaine's home, at Narford Hall, near Swaffham, Norfolk, not far from Bleak House. It was here that the fascist leader organised regular Aryan summer camps, which prompted the Home Office on one occasion to refuse entry permission to a number of continental fascists."

And:

"Many people in the Fen villages near Emneth in Norfolk believed the "weird" farmer to be harmless. But others, who had heard him espouse his hatred for burglars and what he would do with them if he caught them, had taken to giving Martin a wide berth.

Apart from thieves, Martin's pet hate was Gypsies. Norwich crown court heard that the farmer had talked of putting Gypsies in the middle of a field, surrounding it with barbed wire and machine gunning them. Fred Barras, the boy he killed, was both of these things: a Gypsy and a thief."

He was found with guns he had no right to keep, after his license was revoked in 1994 after a troubling series of incidents. He shot someone dead 8 years later.

I was a law student at the time. He started shooting from the stairs (covered under the law). By the time he stopped shooting, he'd chased them outside and blocked their escape so he could kill one of them (not covered under the law).

I fail to see how anyone could think murdering someone is okay for burglary. Sure, the family sound vile. But really? You have the right to chase after and kill someone who wants to steal your things? Who appoints the householder judge, jury and executioner? We've been the victims of a very violent crime. My husband could have been killed in a street robbery when I was 6 months pregnant. He was knocked out. The same gang attacked 6 other people that night - they stole my husband's wedding ring. They are probably still scum (one went out and burgled, when on bail). But that doesn't mean he should have the right to kill them, if we aren't now at any risk ourselves.

And Tony Martin is a bizarre person to select as a have-a-go martyr, IMO.

GlassofRose · 26/07/2012 01:52

I'm not saying we should all become vigilantes with pitch forks but If someone enters my property I do not care about being the better person Confused.

A stranger entering my home would make me feel threatened. You would have no idea what is going on in their mind or what they intend to do.

I was staying at my In laws when they were burgled. Nobody heard the intruders enter but my father in law heard the front door click shut. Possessions are the least of worries, the fear it leaves you with is just awful. You never know what could happen or how a burglar would react so I cannot judge Tony nor do I care what happens to people who decide to intrude on other peoples property.

GlassofRose · 26/07/2012 01:55

perfectstorm

Regardless of whether the man was a racist or not is not really relevant. He might not be a very nice man, but he wasn't on trial for his personality.

Several times he had intruders in his house. Whether they intend to burgle you or harm you I can tell you that it does inflict terror. If someone enters your home at night without your consent or knowledge anything could happen - that is a bloody scary thought.

scurryfunge · 26/07/2012 01:57

Yes, it is frightening, yes it is an intrusion, yes it leaves you feeling awful and at the time it is happening you have a genuine fear that your life s being threatened then you are justified in using reasonable force. The clicking of a front door shutting doesn't give you the right to kill.

GlassofRose · 26/07/2012 01:58

Also, how do you know they weren't a risk because they run away? Intruders had been in his home before, he shot at them whilst he was on the stairs (lawfully) so whats to say they wouldn't come back with intent to harm? They'd already been there before.

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