To think bedtime routines for babies and younger toddlers are not sacrosanct and can be messed around with good outcomes?

[lucasma]

Ds 13 months has always been a bad sleeper and has always had a good bedtime routine.

He settles himself well for naps and bedtime. The problem is night wakings. (I suspect fear of the dark and separation anxiety).

We tried night weaning when he was 11 months and we lasted just over 2 weeks with him wide awake and upset for over 2 hours each night. Dh was helping but stopped and I couldnt sustain it and started feeding again in desperation and now its back to 3-7 night wakings each night, some short with a bit of patting to resettle. Others longer (crying, shouting, wide awake, breastfeeding, patting etc) and can take up to 2 hours. I am so tired.

Dh will be able to help again soon but has a problem back and can't do too much lifting.

I am thinking we change direction with night weaning and when ds wakes up wide awake and won't settle easily (around midnight usually) dh can lift him out put him in a confined, dim lighted playpen area and feed him toast and water. Then he can read him some stories and with luck ds will go back to sleep? He settles well at bedtime with some stories so why wouldn't he in the middle of the night?

(I am thinking if we do this ds will sleep through until the morning as when we were doing the night weaning before he would sleep through once he went back to sleep after the first waking).

Aibu to take ds out of his cot at night, to allow dh to read him stories and give him food and water and to not follow all the bedtime rules?

Bumping so it goes to the top. Please reply here. As I have reported the double up post. Thanks

Personally, I wouldn't be feeding him toast in the night, it doesn't teach him the difference between day and night. Also, that's quite a lot of interaction during the night which to him is probably quite exciting. If you want to feed him during the night I would stick to BM.

I wouldn't get DD up in the night as it gives mixed messages. How wipuld they learn to distinguish day and night?

Maybe give them a bowl of cereal before bed to fill them up? Or just stick to a night feed of BM.

Controlled crying worked for us. And I know I will get flamed for even mentioning it, but although it is not suited to every family, it made us all a much happier bunch, DD included.

Your DS might be a bit old for night feeding now as he definitely doesn't need it anymore.

Maybe try a gradual withdrawal of the feeds?

We had something similar with ds... He would just be awake for up to 2 hours at night, he didn't need anything except the presence of a parent. It was like he had insomnia for a couple of hours. So frustrating. But I agree, I wouldn't do your feeding/playing plan, I'd keep any interaction as low key as possible. To give you hope though, it stopped very suddenly and now he sleeps through to a reasonable hour of the morning. I think maybe it was a developmental thing. The only thing we changed (and it may have been a coincidence!) was I used to have a bath just before we went to bed and although that wasn't when he woke I think it may have disturbed his sleep cycles. It's awful though, I really sympthathise!

You can do whatever you feel is best, however I agree that getting him up and giving him food is more likely to make him harder to settle

I'm not sure I would be giving him toast in the middle of the night, but I understand why you have got to the stage of thinking about it. My DS (2.3) was bf at night till he was just over 18months It is what he needed and wanted. Then one night he didn't want milk, just to interact and play, so from then on my H got up with him and stroked his face and hand till he went back to sleep. Now he sleeps 7-6.
What I am trying to say is that maybe he still needs the BM at night, I know people will say that he shouldn't, but you know what, maybe he just does. All babies are different. Can you bring him into bed with you? Or do you not want to start that? I know for a couple of nights I had a mattress on the floor next to the cot just so he could see me and know I was there.

Personally I wouldn't. You are actually encouraging him to wake up then.

Posted too early. I nightweaned dd from bmilk at 22m, it took 3 weeks of my mum going in & soothing her but after that she slept thro. Controlled crying at 15m had reduced night wakings to one before that.

50shades No flaming from me. CC worked for DS1. Didn't work for DD (who is now the best sleeper in the house) and I didn't even try it with DS2. Just do whatever you have to do, whatever works for your family. I think the main thing is that you and your DH agree, no use one night doing it your way then the next night DH doing something completely different. I think i would try other things before I got them up for a snack in the middle of the night though.

Is he actually hungry though or is it it just normal sleep cycle awakening and he can't get himself back to sleep?

I think getting him up is a terrible idea tbh. Have you looked at his naps during the day and how much food he is eating. Before I have mightweaned mine I always made sure they were settled on 3 good meals a day and eating lots of protein so that I was sure they were getting enough food and they weren't waking up hungry.

Another good sign would be them waking up at the same time in the night. But 3-5 wakings isnt really.

I would do feed once at this stage at the same time every night and then get dh to pat/stroke forthe rest of the wakings and persevere, don't give up once you've started. Same with the cold turkey. If you start then don't give in.

Thank you.

Everyone says he is too old to be fed.

They said stop feeding and he would stop waking in a week. We stopped feeding for over 2 weeks and he still woke up, wide awake and upset for 2 hours.

I don't think he is hungry. I think he doesn't like the dark and wants company. I think he thinks he has slept enough, is no longer tired an want to get up!

He resettles himself during the day, which is why I think sometimes he wakes each sleep cycle at night and doesn't like the dark and wakes up fully.

I would do cc but he gets very upset. He has a lot of stamina. Also I worry about separation anxiety. Also we are moving next week into a very small bedsit and don't want the neighbours to complain.

You say it may confuse his day and night concepts but he already seems to know the difference and doesn't like the night.

How can dh settle him quietly (so as not to disturb the neighbours) without usin his back too much? Any ideas please?

Sorry but I didn't say he was too young to be fed and I stand by that. Different children have different needs. Maybe he just needs the comfort.
Would you consider a mattress on the floor in his room? Either to hold his hand/stroke his face or even sleep with him on the mattress with you? He would still be in his room but feel more secure/comforted? That is what we did, and it was fucking awful at the time but it worked.

I personally wouldn't do the toast thing for all the reasons others have given above.
I had something similar with ds, we went to Florida when he was 4 months, and this really unsettled him, he woke every half an hour through the night wanting a drink of water apparently, as this was what settled him. He wasn't on any milk at that point (wouldn't entertain it due to allergies) just food through the day and yogurts. We came home and he kept doing the night waking, every half an hour. By 7 months we were zombies, I was back at work and it couldn't continue. I bought a book called "help your child to sleep" which had a lot of good tactics for different age children. We decided on controlled crying which took 4 days, and he has never woken in the night since, except for illness. He is now 7. Best book I ever bought and i would recommend to anyone.
Controlled crying isn't your only option, but I think you do need to do something, get a plan, get your dh on board and stick to it until it works.

If you have established that he isn't hungry and just waking for comfort, then I would prob still keep him in his bed but offer a beaker of water and hold his hand shush, pat or if you have to hold him, in the dark. I would also make sure he's had plenty to eat drink before bed. Maybe a bowl of porridge or something for supper.
With dd1 we did this and it took a while but she eventually settled. With dd2 she is now 18mths but has nothing to eat in night and only occasionally water. She does still however wake if too hot/cold/teething and other usual suspects!
How long does he sleep during the day? Is he sleeping too much then?

cc for both of mine too. front it out and take a click with you when he wakes rock him or whatever to sooth put him in bed and walk away just behind the door wait ten mins watching all the time and repeat rocking and soothing. all babies have stamina but your the adult and you have more. two or three sleepless nights and you'll get all the sleep you need.

he will give up eventually. and learn to sleep through. its really hard but i think it might

No way would I get him up - that way lies madness.

Many bad sleepers are that way due to intolerances in their diet (not all, but many). Does he eat a lot of dairy/soya/rich fatty foods or wind inducing stuff like onions/green veg?

What is he eating during the day? How long are his naps?

I wouldn't mind feeding him if it was just the once or twice but it seems feeding him justs escalates the waking.

We feed him tea at 5pm and give him a snack after his bath. So I don't think it's hunger.

I was thinking of the toast/stories as a 2nd bedtime routine. He settles so we'll with he first bedtime, then why not the second?

As I said we can't really do cc as we are moving to bedsit, we could do it for the next week and a bit but then we are moving and he will be disrupted again.

Maybe him sleeping in cot next to us will work (can't co sleep as he is too lively and rolls, crawls and walk everywhere). He will be next to us eventually anyway as it is a bedsit we are moving to so maybe that will help.

I never knew thatIggly; are there any books written about that, as would be really good to learn more about diet and sleep.
I also would not under any circumstances get up and make toasts and read stories. My dd woke every night at least 5 times until she was nearly 3! I found great support from a sleep/non sleep thread on mn. Lots of support after shocking nights and ideas of practical things to try. Dd still has a ticking clock under her bed and a story tape to listen to. I never thought she would sleep through and I had some very dark times through sleep deprivation but I think it's been a developmental change that's made the difference.
So I think my advice would be decide on a plan of action, stick with it and find support i.e mn thread. Keep in mind that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Turns out just as dd is going through night. I'm about to have ds; so roll on sleeplessness again!

He naps 45 mins in the morning. I have to wake him as if he naps too long his pm nap is too late. He naps 1.5-2 hrs in the pm. He is a happy little boy, even though he has a grumpy ma who can't play with him as shes too tired.

I will be starting work soon after we move so will be even harder then so hope to have a solution soon.

Oh Lucasma it sounds like sleep is a really big deal right now. I can understand why you need to fix something.

And I do know one child who can get up in the night, have a play with the lights on, even have something to eat, go back to sleep, and then sleep fine the following night. She is my DD. The difference is that she sleeps perfectly well for 9 nights out of 10 and if she wakes in the night she is usually unsettled for a reason. We worked out ages ago that letting her wake fully and play was generally less stressful for her and us than trying to shush a screaming child in a dark room and had no impact on the following night.

Your DS is different. His night-time sleep sounds like it is broken most nights or every night. You cannot help him learn to resettle at night by allowing him to wake fully. You need to gently reinforce the message that night-time is a consistently dark quiet sleepy safe peaceful time so that when he rolls over during a patch of light sleep and opens his eyes he looks around and thinks 'Oh night-time' and nods right back off. You cannot do that by getting him up with toys every night.

You say your DH was helping with nightweaning before but stopped? I think that is the key. You need consistent support and a plan. We used the No-Cry-Sleep-Solution (google it if you don't already have a copy) with DD and it really isn't rocket science. I don't think any of the tips in there were things we had not tried already. But what did make a difference is that we both read it, agreed on what we were going to do and why and agreed that we were going to follow our plan for at least two weeks and then review how we were doing before trying to change anything, rather than just change things night by night.

If you do controlled crying you may have to do the same thing. Some kids respond very fast, but others take longer. I would guess that controlled crying will be hard to implement in a bedsit when you are in the room too.

On the waking and seeming like he is ready for the day point - do not be mislead! Have you ever had insomnia and woken at 4am and not known what to do with yourself? Babies get it too. I honestly thought my DD just did not need that much sleep. But once she was able to resettle at night she started sleeping from between 7:30-8pm to 7am every night and has done pretty much ever since.

I am in a complete minority but we went through a short phase of giving DD1 a banana or some weetabix in the night and she is now a brilliant sleeper (hmm, that gives me an idea for DD3 who is 2 1/2 and GASP still bf at night). It was when she reached the age of dropping her daytime nap so she was knackered in the evening, ate hardly any tea before falling asleep then woke up hungry. I don't think I'd do stories and play and lights on though, keep it as dark and boring as possible :)

Does he not have any milk before bed? Have you tried a dreamfeed at 11 or so?