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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel discriminated against because I cannot enter into a Civil Partnership because we are not Gay.

323 replies

happyclapper · 12/07/2012 17:37

Having been married twice before and feeling it is, for me, a meaningless institution, I would like some legal form of commitment to my partner of 13yrs.
We have 2DS and I now only work part-time in order to facilitate my partners career and a stable home.
Consequently I have no pension and would be left fairly high and dry should anything happen to my partner.
This could be covered by a Will I quess but that would not help me if we simply decided to split.
I had a good job, pension scheme etc but have no chance now of returning after a 8yr abscence.
I think a civil arrangement would be perfect and can't understand why only same sex couples can enter into it.

OP posts:
rhetorician · 13/07/2012 20:02

move to Ireland, where opposite sex couples can have civil partnerships (and do, de facto after 5 years without kids, 3 years with)

GnomeDePlume · 13/07/2012 20:08

It is the untidiness which is the problem, not just of relationships but of life in general. People die suddenly, without warning. They get sick. They get pregnant unintentionally.

This I think is the problem of a less than all encompassing agreement. I get the feel from this thread that there are a lot of people who dont want to be in marriages however if it all ends or changes profoundly suddenly they want the protection as though they had been married. A relationship in hindsight.

Chubfuddler · 13/07/2012 20:14

I am very uneasy about any recognition of common law marriage. Before Dh and I were married we were unmarried because we didn't want those legal rights and responsibilities towards each other. When we decided that we did want them, we freely chose to assume them. I don't think it right that people who have made a definite choice not to marry be construed to have done so merely by cohabiting. Otherwise it will be impossible to simply shack up with a lover for a bit. Do we want that?

JamieandTheOlympicTorch · 13/07/2012 20:18

I agree with that Gnome and Edgar.

ummamumma · 13/07/2012 20:20

A relationship in hindsight is very much 'she said, he said', far simpler to have a clearly made agreement at a set point in time: marriage.
I actually am against cohabiting rights. Not because I think cohabitation is a lesser state and that people aren't as committed as married people, but because of the level of intrusiveness it gives the government.
Also, like a lot of people, I have cohabited before finding the person I wanted to marry. Imagine being considered 'married' because you move in with someone and it's a casual business.

I don't want to get all moral here because it's not about morality for me just pragmatism, but I think that society has done people a disservice by breaking the link between marriage and reproduction in long-term relationships.

I think gay marriage will go further to destroy that link-at least in part.

JamieandTheOlympicTorch · 13/07/2012 20:21

Perhaps if the commercial world hadn't got hold of weddings there wouldn't be all the fetishising of all the trappings that are incidental to the business of being in a relationship.

JamieandTheOlympicTorch · 13/07/2012 20:29

Can't believe I typed fetishising. I have had a glass of wine. I stand by the sentiment behind my post, though.

rhetorician · 13/07/2012 20:32

ummamumma that's precisely the problem with the Irish set-up (e.g. you have to actively opt out) - I just think it's not the state's business, and it's up to couples themselves whether they want to make their relationship the state's business. Although of course marital status is less important than cohabitation in terms of welfare claims etc (as I found to my cost back in the 1980s where I was expected to pay my same-sex partner's rent when she had no income, even though we had no legal rights at all as a couple).

ummamumma · 13/07/2012 20:33

Yes, I agree.
I'm a bit pragmatic about marriage; I don't really understand -If people are going to live with somebody long-term and have children- what the revulsion is towards marriage: why not be married in that case? The only reason I can think of is to keep finances etc separate, but it's not as if they are not living like married people, and if the shit fits as they say...

GnomeDePlume · 13/07/2012 20:34

I think that committed long term relationships are a good thing.

Whether for the procreation of children or not is IMO irrelevant.

It has taken me a while to come to this opinion but now I am fully in favour of marriage being available to any couple who want to create an exclusive, long term, mutually supportive relationship.

ummamumma · 13/07/2012 20:37

rhetorician, I don't know what it is like in Ireland, but I do know that in the UK before civil partnerships came into being in 2005, no gay person was regarded as 'living as married/civilly partnered' because, of course, there was no such concept.
A lot of cohabiting gay people who had previously been classed as single, suddenly found themselves classed as a couple.

rhetorician · 13/07/2012 20:37

I think if marriage is a purely civil/legal institution then I can't really see the problem with it; religious marriage is a matter for individual couples and I personally wouldn't want any part of it (well can't, anyway). I have to say that as things stand I am not particularly bothered by the term marriage, but would want to be in a position where I could have a legal relationship to my children. But I am not in the UK, and I don't want to hijack what is rather an interesting discussion with personal circumstances.

FoxyRoxy · 13/07/2012 20:40

Op yanbu for wanting to be legally protected without having to "get married" or be someone's wife but yabu to believe this is what a civil partnership is. There are vows, declarations and a ceremony at the register office just like with a civil marriage.

My husband and I married in a 10 minute ceremony in the office of a registrar with 2 friends as witnesses. We sat at a desk opposite the registrar and made the basic legal declarations. No one knew we were married for over a year because we didn't tell anyone. You don't have to refer to yourself as a wife.

I would think its considerably cheaper and easier to have a civil marriage or a civil partnership than to go to a lawyer and have all sorts of agreements drawn up. It's unfortunate, but that's how it is.

ummamumma · 13/07/2012 20:41

GnomeDePlume, I don't think that committed long-term relationships are good or bad if there are no children involved. It only matters if there is a third party who could suffer if there is a breakdown of that relationship i.e. a child/ren.
It's a personal tragedy, but I don't see that it is in society's interests to keep a childless couple together.

Chubfuddler · 13/07/2012 20:42

Foxy you're right a civil wedding licence would be much much cheaper than a tailor made cohabitation agreement, transfer of equity deed for any property and mutual wills. About a quarter, at a conservative estimate.

perfectstorm · 13/07/2012 20:43

Gnome, that was the problem I kept bumping up against when researching: how can you try to make the infinite, kaleidoscopic variety of family arrangements fit another set of rules, any better than they do the existing? It's never simple, is it. But then, to an extent all private family law consists of trying to force messy, nebulous, non-linear human relationships into some sort of predetermined mould, so you can work out what the hell to do when it's all gone to hell in a handcart. I seem vaguely to recall autopoeitic(sp?) theory holding that law is an inherently inappropriate means to try to regulate families and their mutual obligations, for just that reason. Whatever you do you're going to be imposing an injustice on someone, at some point. Multiple someones in fact. The only question is how far you can reduce that, and if you can try to make it least likely to be the most vulnerable.

olgaga, I think the expectations are to do with expectations of social roles, in many cases, rather than financial responsibilities. That's actually a factor in most marriages. When we were first married - no kids, both working - even my own DH started huffing about stuff such as sausages past their sellby, or baths clean enough. I just said if he wanted to be a sexist twat he could look online for divorce papers; if he wanted to be reasonable, he could explain why precisely he was incapable of reading a sellby date himself, or cleaning a bathtub he also used. He stopped, apologised, and agreed he was in some way responding to his own internalised conception of marriage. He's (mostly) managed to avoid that crap since. But I deal with those conceptions from my in laws quite a lot (and used to from my father, too). I'm not too bothered, because DH is also a thoughtful person who understands my irritation. And we live a long way from my in-laws, so we see them rarely. But a lot of people don't have that situation, or just aren't willing or happy to set that social and emotional weighting aside, and why should they? That social weight of expectation is totally separate from wanting financial protection and recognition of a non-monetary contribution to family life.

"Aside from the obvious obligation of a parent to a child, you can't force obligations on to people who refuse to accept them. The whole point of marriage is that you mutually agree to obligations which confer lawful rights on each other."

Well, no, actually you can. That's how de facto law works, and a lot of jurisdictions have it. It's conduct based, rather than formal agreement based. There are arguments against it, good and valid ones, clarity of intention not least, but there are also excellent arguments for it. There's no right answer. Costs and benefits go with each.

EdgarAllenPimms, in this thread, again and again people seem to be saying that if others don't want to share their life choices, no other options should be available because that alone makes the differing position illogical. That they just need to stop feeling the way they do and see it all logically. But it isn't about logic; families, life partners, and the emotions we feel for them. Very few people decide to marry because they want legal protection if their spouse beats them, or leaves them for someone else after 30 years, or they themselves fall out of love and want to leave. People marry because they're in love and want to build a family together, usually. It's emotions-based, not logic. So why, then, demand that others are logical in accepting marriage now that it can be stripped of most wording that would support its being oppressive, if the mere idea of being "legally wedded" and a husband/wife makes them squirm? And if a lot of people sincerely want a new model, without the heavy weighting of historical resonance, then why block that? For what reason?

Finally, as rhetoricians has pointed out, Ireland has a system similar to the one I ended up thinking we should have after researching (clever Ireland ;)), and allows CP to gay and straight people on equal terms, and the sky hasn't fallen in.

In brief: the current system works for a lot of us. Lucky us. But if it's not working for a lot of other people, why can't it be altered, or expanded to encompass their needs, too? Why insist people should fit our model, when another exists they would prefer?

ummamumma · 13/07/2012 20:52

It would be better to go back to a time when if a stable couple wanted a child or got pregnant outside of wedlock, they got married. Really, it's not rocket science.
THAT'S what marriage is for! Grin. Falling in love, wanting a baby, getting married. Instead of all this business about gay marriage- I mean who cares? The govt should do all it can to promote this. Throw money at the situation-it would save money in the long run.

It is a legal contract, of course it is, but at its heart is the recognition of man and woman producing a family. It is the government's way of providing a legal framework for family life. To offer protections for the vulnerable.
Nothing to do with religion (not necessarily so, anyway) or morality.

rhetorician · 13/07/2012 20:57

well the bizarre thing here is that gay people have to sign up to be considered as a civil partnership, but straight ones don't, so it's still discriminatory in the strict sense of that word. There are plenty of gay couples who don't want any such framework imposed upon their relationships, just as there are straight people.

ummamumma · 13/07/2012 20:58

The Irish system sounds mental to me, rhetorician, fair play Grin.

perfectstorm · 13/07/2012 20:59

"THAT'S what marriage is for! . Falling in love, wanting a baby, getting married. Instead of all this business about gay marriage- I mean who cares?"

My cousin and her wife? Who fell in love, wanted a baby, and had to have a CP, rather than a marriage?

Me, because it's a human rights issue if gay people are blocked from an institution straight people can enter, purely because of their sexuality?

rhetorician · 13/07/2012 20:59

oh don't get me started...

ummamumma · 13/07/2012 21:00

But if gay couples can adopt, it's only right that they're offered something analogous to marriage even if it can't be marriage. I see that.

ummamumma · 13/07/2012 21:04

perfectstorm, if gay people want marriage, I can only think that they want the current rules on marriage to apply to them.

But it would be absurd to apply some of the same rules that apply to marriage to gay people.
For example, when a couple marry, the husband is automatically assumed to be the father of any child his wife gives birth to.
It would be nonsensical to apply this to gay people.

So, yeah, a very similar system is necessary i.e. civil partnership. But marriage is something else.

Chubfuddler · 13/07/2012 21:07

What about an extremely religious couple who cannot have or choose not to have children? Are they not married then?

Confused
Chubfuddler · 13/07/2012 21:09

When a married couple buy a house it is automatically registered as a joint tenancy (unless they state otherwise). My husband and I rent. Are we not properly married then, because that rule doesn't apply to us?

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