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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel discriminated against because I cannot enter into a Civil Partnership because we are not Gay.

323 replies

happyclapper · 12/07/2012 17:37

Having been married twice before and feeling it is, for me, a meaningless institution, I would like some legal form of commitment to my partner of 13yrs.
We have 2DS and I now only work part-time in order to facilitate my partners career and a stable home.
Consequently I have no pension and would be left fairly high and dry should anything happen to my partner.
This could be covered by a Will I quess but that would not help me if we simply decided to split.
I had a good job, pension scheme etc but have no chance now of returning after a 8yr abscence.
I think a civil arrangement would be perfect and can't understand why only same sex couples can enter into it.

OP posts:
GnomeDePlume · 12/07/2012 23:12

Perfectstorm I agree that a lot of people do believe that they acquire rights over time when in fact they dont.

The thing about making the public commitment is that it tells society in general and the establishment that you are making that commitment to each other from this or that date until the commitment is formally ended by death or divorce.

The state doesnt look in through your windows. What you do in your own home is largely your own business. Unless you make the public statement to the state you could be partners, friends with benefits, tennant and landlord. Until you make the public statement of commitment the state doesnt know which means that the state cant offer you protection.

CM/CP sets formal dates. The public commitment is made and both partners know that they are in that relationship until they formally end it. This is not the case if the commitment is not formalised.

happyclapper · 12/07/2012 23:17

The commitment is in the hearts, minds and to be honest , finances of the couple involved. I am happy to declare that in a formal legal document but cannot understand why it is the business of anyone else, particularly Joe public.

OP posts:
GnomeDePlume · 12/07/2012 23:23

The problem happyclapper is that the state doesnt know you. The state doesnt know that you are in a relationship. To the state you are just two people who share the same address. If one of you moved out how would the state know whether this was a relationship that had ended or a tenancy agreement that had ended?

Viewing it the other way, would you want a tenancy agreement to confer marriage type rights if the agreement broke down?

This is the thing, you arent hoodwinked into marriage, you know when you make the public statement of commitment that that is what you are doing.

happyclapper · 12/07/2012 23:29

None of that is a problem. I would have been happy at any stage of our relationship to go along and register our family status and sign a contract agreeing to remain as such until we decided otherwise. During this period we are both covered by a legally binding financial commitment. Period!
Sort of like a civil partnership.........

OP posts:
GnomeDePlume · 12/07/2012 23:32

It is the business of Joe Public to the extent that it gives Joe Public the oportunity to say that there are impediments:

  • they are already married to other people
  • they are closely related
  • they arent who they say they are

It is by no means foolproof but does mean that people making a public commitment they are not entitled to make do run a greater risk of getting caught than if this were done hidden away in a solicitors office.

None of this is going to convince you though is it?

Latara · 12/07/2012 23:34

happyclapper - a civil partnership is pretty much the same as a marriage in all but name.
It's not called a marriage just to appease the homophobic so-called Christian right wingers whose ideas sadly matter to governments because they are a demographic group who tend to use their vote in the general elections.
A colleague of mine married her girlfriend - ok, it was a civil partnership technically, but they called it their wedding & both wore lovely bridal gowns; one white & one red.

If you don't want to get married then don't.
If you are concerned about protecting yours & your partner's rights & finances should you split up - then go to a solicitor & get some form of legal agreement drawn up.
That's actually a piece of paper though; other people are involved in drawing it up & you both have to sign it (with the solicitor, at least, as a witness).
Just like a marriage certificate.

So you may as well just go to the registry office, take 2 friends along or ask 2 people in off the street to witness the very quick ceremony & sign that particular legal document.
You can get married in jeans & a hoody if you like & don't need to even look at each other; the registrar & 2 strangers who witness the ceremony won't judge you.

I think that it's belittling civil partnerships to say they are not like a marriage; when to many gay couples that commitment is exactly like a marriage - & they are fighting hard to get it called a marriage.

Sparks1 · 12/07/2012 23:42

Quite frankly if this is the biggest worry you have in your life you're doing well.

I'd quite like the government and parliament to concentrate on important legislation rather then individualised legal entitlement.

AThingInYourLife · 12/07/2012 23:47

"I would have been happy at any stage of our relationship to go along and register our family status and sign a contract agreeing to remain as such until we decided otherwise. During this period we are both covered by a legally binding financial commitment. Period!
Sort of like a civil partnership........."

Exactly like a marriage.

Arf at wanting public recognition of a relationship while claiming it is not the business of "Joe Public" :o

Marriage and civil partnership both make your relationship the business of Joe Public.

If you want it to be an entirely private affair (and I did for a long time) then you should want neither.

Mrsjay · 12/07/2012 23:54

Oh for crying out loud SERIOUSLY get a grip on yourself gay people can not marry so they go for a civil partnership un equal to us who can marry go to a flaming lawyer draw up something to do with wills or whatever and get a grip of your self

happyclapper · 13/07/2012 00:01

Gnome, maybe in medieval times it was the job of Joe public to highlight these impediments but do you seriously think that is what happens today? I think there are slightly more sophisticated methods for confirming our I.D. and our eligability to marry.
Latara, it doesn't matter whether you are in Vera Wang or jeans, a wedding is still a wedding and a CP is still a CP no matter who is there or what you are wearing.
ATIYL I don't want public recognition, infact that is obviously what I am not interested in or I would get married. I want legal recognition of my role in my family.
Are only married women and gay partners worthy of legal and financial protection? The rest of us can rot presummably.

OP posts:
happyclapper · 13/07/2012 00:05

As we have established legal papers are contestable so thanks for your great advice Mrsjay.
Maybe I'll just trot along to the registry office and not really give a toss about what I am actually saying and doing just so I don't cause a fuss.

OP posts:
Latara · 13/07/2012 00:12

Maybe you should just be grateful that you CAN legally marry; unlike a gay couple.

As i said - you can go to your solicitor & draw up an agreement giving you legal & financial protection; similar to a civil partnership.

Or you can get married simply with no fuss.
You are lucky to have a partner who you love & who loves you.
Stop moaning about nothing much please.

happyclapper · 13/07/2012 00:21

Sorry. You are right. I should just enter into an institution that has a massive failure rate and has failed for me twice already.
Alternatively just carry on as I am very happily . Unfortunately life has taught me that you never know what is around the corner and it has a nasty habit of biting you on the arse but I guess we are only taking about not being able to afford a home and have a reasonable quality of living. If the worse did happen I'm sure I would be able to pick up where I left off in this boomimg economy.
But hey ho, as long as I can 'legally marry' and wear a big puffy merinque dress...thats what really counts. Now where is my tiara?

OP posts:
EightiesChick · 13/07/2012 00:27

Come on OP, people have said over and over you can do it without the big meringue etc. You want a legal agreement. That's what marriage is. Plus you could not tell anyone else thus avoiding the baggage. Just o it if you want the legals, or leave it alone if you don't. Gay couples are not getting some big privilege here.

EightiesChick · 13/07/2012 00:29

You sound very like all the straight white men who moan that women get all the perks these days and they are discriminated against. They aren't, and neither are you.

happyclapper · 13/07/2012 00:34

It seems that people are either not reading or not understanding my posts so I am not going to carry on repeating myself.
Suffice to say marriage is not for me so I'll have to lump it I guess or take my chances on an unguarenteed personnalised legal document.
Goodnight.

OP posts:
McHappyPants2012 · 13/07/2012 00:38

i got wed in a registery office, so did a my best friend ever

no matter how we seperate the legal side of thing will be the same, we paid the same.

Blackduck · 13/07/2012 06:41

I want what panicingidiot described on page 2.....
Op I understand where you are coming from

Chubfuddler · 13/07/2012 07:16

The outcome of financial wranglings on divorce isn't entirely certain or predictable either op. I don't know exactly what it is you think you want.

Put it this way - if you have a cohabitation agreement, or indeed a marriage, no third party is going to start dictating how you manage your financial and child related affairs if you split Not unless you can't sort them out yourselves. So all you actually have to fear is being fucked over by your partner.

Dozer · 13/07/2012 07:23

OP why are you ignoring everyone who has highlighted that legally, civil partnership is virtually the same as marriage? It gives people the same options as you, not more.

Yabvu to suggest that you are being discriminated against.

A cohabitation agreement can sort some stuff, but if you want legal rights etc you will need to get married, like other heterosexual and homosexual couples.

Get over yourself.

JeezyPeeps · 13/07/2012 07:24

I think it's sad that people are using civil partnerships as a way of saying heterosexuals are discriminated against.

This was a concession, falling short of marriage, to appease a group that have been marginalised, legislated against and discriminated against for centuries.

But you're not happy because you can't have what they've got. Well, tough. You've been married. They still can't. Once they can marry, I'll support you.

perfectstorm · 13/07/2012 09:56

Gnome, it isn't that the state can't offer protection, it's that the state in this jurisdiction has decided, so far anyway, not to legislate to do so. Other states have legislated to regulate relationships that haven't ever been formally entered into by the parties, which is why de facto law exists. It certainly makes things easier and clearer - even in those jurisdictions - if a formal, legal commitment has been entered into, and the certainty there justifies expecting the parties to take a greater degree of responsibility for the other's welfare going forward... but the balance between certainty and fairness is, IMO, out of whack right now in this country. Allowing some form of commitment that's less all-encompassing than marriage, but still a pro forma contract that can flex as life circumstances alter, seems a good idea. The current system isn't working for large numbers of people, and there are other compromise options that appear to work okay elsewhere, and wouldn't leave large numbers of people so vulnerable to their ex's goodwill.

It's also the case that the banns these days are pointless. Nobody goes and scans the notices at the registry office, and as (unless a lot has changed over the past decade) no central database is kept, it's not that hard to commit bigamy. Publicity was a protection when people lived in smaller communities and moved away from home very little. Nowadays, I don't think it is. If someone wants to commit bigamy and has the sense to be discreet about it, the public nature of marriage isn't likely to be what gets them caught.

OP, maybe Vegas? I mean, it's hard to take an Elvis impersonator marrying you seriously, or a drive thru, you can write your own vows so maybe can skip the wording you most object to, you only need one witness who can be anyone at all, you can get good and drunk first as a way of thumbing your nose at the whole procedure, and I doubt the words are especially sentimental if you don't want them to be... but it'd have the same legal effects.

emmieging · 13/07/2012 11:25

Happy clapper- I still think there are 2 different 'arguments' going on here. I actually entirely agree with you that all available options - marriage, CP- should be available to all couples.

But you are 'blaming' all of your potential insecurity on the fact that you can't have a CP, which I feel is a bit disingenuous. The single biggest factor which makes you more financially vulnerable is that you have chosen to step back with your own earning and not pay into your own pension. Now- I hasten to add I am NOT judging you for feeling that as a family that's a decision which suits you. But it's a choice which is entirely irrelevant to marriage . Many married women are pitifully vulnerable financially because they don't have a pension etc . Also, have you actually looked at what your rights are if you and your partner actually separate? Because you wouldn't be left with nothing. You also have the option to draw up legal agreements over specific issues with your partner if you want clarity about specific things.

I am NOT in disagreement about your stance that straight couples should be able to have CP (and equally gay couples should be able to marry). But your OP comes across a little bit as 'because of life decisions I've made about work and finances, I am vulnerable because I'm not married' which is not really the case- your situation would make you potentially vulnerable if you were married. A married woman doesn't just get handed all of her husbands pension if he dies first. She may be entitled to a proportion of it but there is no automatic right to his whole pension for life (though having said that I think a lot of women are worryingly misinformed about the whole issue. I believe the statistics show well over half of women have provided I adequately for their old age, and that includes married women. )

emmieging · 13/07/2012 11:26

That should be 'provided INADEQUATELY'

noddyholder · 13/07/2012 11:27

I think if you don't want the traditional marriage and the whole patriarchal ceremony based on ownership etc then you should be able to have something protective but more equal